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Post by Michael Callahan on Mar 21, 2013 20:34:06 GMT -4
For me, my rather liberal ideas towards transgenders and relationships is a fairly recent development. A combination of an episode of An Idiot Abroad (the one where Karl goes to Thailand) and learning of a model called Sarina Valentina (google it, with SafeSearch Off if you're not faint of heart) made me reassess things. My limited experiences with transgenders have always been the ones that look wrong. Badly done, halfway, or just not genetically cut out to make an attractive female in their physical being, but once I actually saw one that I thought "Christ, I definitely would" it changed my perspective a lot. Furthermore, there's also the Miss Universe contestant who got DQ'd for being born a dude but with the full anatomical change done. Anyone who says they wouldn't at least consider it is kidding themselves; atrl.net/forums/showthread.php?t=198712 (SFW) Finally, the people saying "Oh, if I found out that happened to me, I'd kick her ass", "I'd be in prison" etc make me very angry indeed. Transgenders have a very fucking hard time with social acceptance as it is. They're still seen as taboo, as freak shows, which by all rights you're allowed to think if you want, but they're still human beings the same as anyone else. If they haven't told you they're transgender, it's probably because they're afraid of a violent response like that. Joking or not, that's a fucking disgusting attitude to take. |
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Post by Level-Two on Mar 21, 2013 21:13:00 GMT -4
To be honest... you don't play with fire if you don't want to get burnt. I definitely do not condone murder at all but if a wig get's split in the process, you can't tell me nobody saw it coming.
Don't con people into relationships. If you think they won't accept you for whatever you are upfront - don't expect to change after the fact.
If I tell a girl I'm a successful business man while working at the gas station; if she leaves my ass for lying, that's on me.
Mind you, that is a non violent situation. I don't condone it... I just understand where the response could come from. Crime of passion, I'd argue.
And yes, that model is the hot tyranny. I can't even hate, man. I haven't seen he/she without makeup but that looks like a girl if I ever seen one.
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Post by Nathaniel Havok on Mar 21, 2013 21:39:30 GMT -4
Finally, the people saying "Oh, if I found out that happened to me, I'd kick her ass", "I'd be in prison" etc make me very angry indeed. Transgenders have a very fucking hard time with social acceptance as it is. They're still seen as taboo, as freak shows, which by all rights you're allowed to think if you want, but they're still human beings the same as anyone else. If they haven't told you they're transgender, it's probably because they're afraid of a violent response like that. Joking or not, that's a fucking disgusting attitude to take. If after 7 years, my woman came out about being a guy... He/She'd have an ass kicking coming. Why? Because I've wasted 7 years of my life with someone who wasn't honest about who they are. That's like a guy coming home and saying "Baby, for our entire relationship, I've been having sex with your sister."... Dude is probably going to get what's coming to him. And if I found out that after 7 years, she was a dude... Yeah, I'm beating your ass like a dude. I DON'T hit women, and I would NEVER condone it. Actually, I kicked my buddies ass 3 years ago, for hitting his fiancee. Kicked his ass BAD! Hitting women pisses me off. And on more than one occasion, I've interfered in a couples argument out in public, on the woman's behalf. Even talking down to a woman around me, is a HUGE no-no. |
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Post by Jules on Mar 21, 2013 21:57:56 GMT -4
If that person is legally deemed a woman, then you're hitting a woman. I believe in the UK that gender re-assignment is recognised legally (i.e. you can get your birth certificate changed to reflect your gender re-assignment). Not sure about the US law, just did a quick wiki and it suggests it is state-dependent.
So, just in case you find yourself in that hypothetical, check your state law or you might find yourself being convicted as a woman-beater.
But on a serious note, somebody lying doesn't warrant a violent response. I don't care who they are or what they are. Shunned maybe, but not physically assaulted.
Also, you have to see the hypocrisy of your claimed chivalry towards women and your attack on transgenders by claiming a transgender woman isn't female (if legally, with gender re-assignment, this is the case). This simply isn't a case of personal taste, it's a matter of law and a person's rights as a human being. You don't like transgenders that's fine, that your preference and you have a right to hold that opinion, but you're in no position to deny that person their basic civil rights (which may extend to them being classified as male/female according to their preference).
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Post by Nathaniel Havok on Mar 21, 2013 22:46:58 GMT -4
If that person is legally deemed a woman, then you're hitting a woman. I believe in the UK that gender re-assignment is recognised legally (i.e. you can get your birth certificate changed to reflect your gender re-assignment). Not sure about the US law, just did a quick wiki and it suggests it is state-dependent. So, just in case you find yourself in that hypothetical, check your state law or you might find yourself being convicted as a woman-beater. But on a serious note, somebody lying doesn't warrant a violent response. I don't care who they are or what they are. Shunned maybe, but not physically assaulted. Also, you have to see the hypocrisy of your claimed chivalry towards women and your attack on transgenders by claiming a transgender woman isn't female (if legally, with gender re-assignment, this is the case). This simply isn't a case of personal taste, it's a matter of law and a person's rights as a human being. You don't like transgenders that's fine, that your preference and you have a right to hold that opinion, but you're in no position to deny that person their basic civil rights (which may extend to them being classified as male/female according to their preference). Read EVERYTHING I've said. I stated why this he/she shouldn't be able to fight women, and did it with a very educated response. I know how the body works. When I first came to APW, I was a personal trainer by trade. I understand the human body, male and female. How it works, their differences, and how to adjust not only a diet, but a work out regimen, to benefit either sex. I also understand how you can consider it a "hypocrisy". HOWEVER, I'm looking at it from the point of view of a man who IS in love, who HAS spent the past 7 years devoted to the same woman, and who knows everything about her. If that were to come out, and she were a dude... Then wasting 7 years of my life is taking it WAY too far. Hell, I'd probably beat the shit out of her dad too, for not telling me (he and I are real close). You can't look at it from a wide perspective. It's one man, one woman, and 7 years. Not a transgender community as a whole. Bottom line (and back to what Lively had intended), this transgender was built from the ground up (from birth to the day of his first hormonal therapy treatment) by testosterone. Every other woman that "she" fights, was built from the ground up by estrogen (Ovaries produce a VERY SMALL amount of testosterone, but not enough to effect the growth of said woman). Which begs the question, if "she" has an obvious unfair advantage, what makes it fair for "her" to fight women? |
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Post by Jules on Mar 22, 2013 5:53:42 GMT -4
If that person is legally deemed a woman, then you're hitting a woman. I believe in the UK that gender re-assignment is recognised legally (i.e. you can get your birth certificate changed to reflect your gender re-assignment). Not sure about the US law, just did a quick wiki and it suggests it is state-dependent. So, just in case you find yourself in that hypothetical, check your state law or you might find yourself being convicted as a woman-beater. But on a serious note, somebody lying doesn't warrant a violent response. I don't care who they are or what they are. Shunned maybe, but not physically assaulted. Also, you have to see the hypocrisy of your claimed chivalry towards women and your attack on transgenders by claiming a transgender woman isn't female (if legally, with gender re-assignment, this is the case). This simply isn't a case of personal taste, it's a matter of law and a person's rights as a human being. You don't like transgenders that's fine, that your preference and you have a right to hold that opinion, but you're in no position to deny that person their basic civil rights (which may extend to them being classified as male/female according to their preference). Read EVERYTHING I've said. I stated why this he/she shouldn't be able to fight women, and did it with a very educated response. I know how the body works. When I first came to APW, I was a personal trainer by trade. I understand the human body, male and female. How it works, their differences, and how to adjust not only a diet, but a work out regimen, to benefit either sex. I also understand how you can consider it a "hypocrisy". HOWEVER, I'm looking at it from the point of view of a man who IS in love, who HAS spent the past 7 years devoted to the same woman, and who knows everything about her. If that were to come out, and she were a dude... Then wasting 7 years of my life is taking it WAY too far. Hell, I'd probably beat the shit out of her dad too, for not telling me (he and I are real close). You can't look at it from a wide perspective. It's one man, one woman, and 7 years. Not a transgender community as a whole. Bottom line (and back to what Lively had intended), this transgender was built from the ground up (from birth to the day of his first hormonal therapy treatment) by testosterone. Every other woman that "she" fights, was built from the ground up by estrogen (Ovaries produce a VERY SMALL amount of testosterone, but not enough to effect the growth of said woman). Which begs the question, if "she" has an obvious unfair advantage, what makes it fair for "her" to fight women? Bro, I did read EVERYTHING and my point is completely unrelated from the OP and the transgender fighter - the discussion has moved on to the status of transgender men/women. On the point of the OP, I am actually in agreement with you. However, you seem to be either missing the point I'm making about transgenders in society and relationships, and/or you seem to be confusing transgenders with cross dressers or drag queens. The latter (in particular with men) is usually a man who is gay and dresses up as a woman in order to play the part of a woman. A transgender person is something who believes they are the opposite sex. In the case of a transgender woman it is not a gay man who wants to be a woman in order to manipulate men into having sex with them, they are a person born a male who feel they are, in all other aspects (emotionally, personality, mentally etc), a woman. The issues has nothing to do with homosexuality, you're imprinting that upon transgenders, when in our hypothetical case the transgender person will believe they are a heterosexual female, and the gender re-assignment ops are a means to facilitate that. From the point of legal demographics a relationship between a man and a transgender female (if the latter is recognised) would be a heterosexual relationship. The status of this person is determined by law, not by whether you, me, or anyone else thinks a transgender person is a man, woman, or martian. So to say 'it's really a dude without a dick, so deserves to be treated like a dude' is not only ignorant, but could involve denying that person a basic civil right to be classed as a female citizen. If someone beat down on such a person, and that person is recognised by law as a woman, and the attacker is prosecuted the case will be one of a man assaulting a woman. If there is some form of discrimination involved, it will be a case of sexual discrimination. I understand where you're coming from however in feeling betrayed in the hypothetical situation, and I have no doubt I would be angry if I were in those shoes. However, that wouldn't justify me assaulting that person, nor would it warrant me to go around calling that person 'a gay dude without a dick'. Even if I thought that it wouldn't mean shit if the law stated that person was now a woman. Therefore, they would be a woman who was a liar (or at least a woman who didn't provide the full story). |
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Post by Jason Cashe on Mar 22, 2013 12:22:03 GMT -4
One, the picture inserted doesn't really hit home for me. Maybe she is attractive, I'm not at all into Asians so no go even if it was a real female. I get where Havok is coming from however I'd have said it differently. I'd WANT to whip her ass if she told me after 7 years she was born a man. Imagine the length of relationship I've had with 12 years being involved. I'd be pissed and call me what ever you want, I'd want to wreck her/his face. Fuck their social acceptance, I couldn't give two shits about other people's opinions in my world and relationship. My emotions are my own, fuck how others THINK I should go about it. We're all different or suppose to be and now most people are too concerned with how others feel.
In America, in the WORLD. Women get beat for various reasons. Too many people drink and that can lead to so many wrongs and yet it's publicized on Television Commercials. If I walked in and caught my wife getting fucked by another man, could I kill them both? No, I'd probably still go to Prison but would that prevent me from doing it? Haha...You ain't gotta agree with it but I'm not asking you too, don't care if you do or not. Nobody has to share your opinions on the matter because there is always more than one way to approach things. You feel yours is correct, and maybe in Today's Society it is right. I'm on some other shit, an older time when I handle mine and fuck what anyone else thinks about it. So would I break "her" face? No but BET I'm getting something to make up for the time invested in a GAY relationship. One that wasn't sought out. Bet that shit, fuck if it's socially right.
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Post by Jason Cashe on Mar 22, 2013 12:27:59 GMT -4
I'm not kidding myself in anyway. I don't like Asian females AT ALL. Never have found one attractive. Just the same as I don't like Red Heads (More because my sister is red headed and I hate the bitch) But it's THAT attitude when I find myself laughing. We'd have to be kidding ourselves because YOU find her, it attractive? So what? Do you honestly feel that your opinion is that concrete to where anything other than it is ignorance? I wouldn't think so from conversations we've had. See I let people be who they are, I don't second look folks who convert to a certain accepted way of life. If you do you regardless of society's calling then you real. Outside of that is a bunch of zombies. So I'm not kidding myself at all...
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Post by Level-Two on Mar 22, 2013 13:33:50 GMT -4
Jason Kash don't give a fuck.
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Post by Jason Cashe on Mar 22, 2013 14:26:30 GMT -4
It's not that I don't give a fuck, it's just that too many people fall in line to what is promoted in society now. Trends is just disgusting these days. I've never hated gay people but I'll be damned if I'm gonna stop making "That's Gay" comments because society feels the need to protect someone from their feelings being hurt. Fat people get shit on, ugly ones get treated differently as well. I don't think overly protecting someone because of them being handicapped or gay or different in general is better, it's almost worse than being nasty to them because then you're only being nice because of their issues. I just see it differently I guess. Like not giving a fuck is something new, I'm not trying to be new, just who I am without the forced influences of modern times...
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Post by Jules on Mar 22, 2013 19:40:10 GMT -4
It's not that I don't give a fuck, it's just that too many people fall in line to what is promoted in society now. Trends is just disgusting these days. I've never hated gay people but I'll be damned if I'm gonna stop making "That's Gay" comments because society feels the need to protect someone from their feelings being hurt. Fat people get shit on, ugly ones get treated differently as well. I don't think overly protecting someone because of them being handicapped or gay or different in general is better, it's almost worse than being nasty to them because then you're only being nice because of their issues. I just see it differently I guess. Like not giving a fuck is something new, I'm not trying to be new, just who I am without the forced influences of modern times... It's got nothing to do with political correctness or not offending people, it's about respecting people's civil rights. I never said people can't find transgenders or homosexuals offensive or repulsive, but in terms of the law (which according to Aristotle is reason free from emotion) if a person who has undergone gender re-identification is recognized as such, that ought to be respected, and it's nothing to do with taste to go around saying a transgender woman is just 'a dude without a dick'. It's ignorance, plain and simple. You wouldn't go around calling black people slaves, even if you think that's what they are (don't take this the wrong way, it's an example), because their civil status is now (rightfully) as equal to all other races in ALL respects. If they are recognized by the law, then the same goes for transgenders. But I'm not saying you have to like their choices, just that where their civil status is qualified you should respect that. After all, isn't that the fundamental basis of the social contract: I respect your rights if you respect mine (even if we disagree as the nature of those rights). |
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Post by Nathaniel Havok on Mar 22, 2013 21:01:00 GMT -4
I get where you're coming from, Jules. And I agree to a certain extent. I wasn't able to verbalize it as well as Jason did, and Jason hit the nail on the head.
GET OUT OF MY DAMN HEAD, JKASH!
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Post by Jason Cashe on Mar 22, 2013 22:38:43 GMT -4
Yes I get the whole equal rights. I don't go around pointing fingers and calling gays "Fags" or anything. Everyone of my known Uncles "have been" or are currently Homosexual. I like at least two of them...Same would go for Drag Queens or Trans-Genders. They can do what they want with whom allows it, just not me. I'm not gonna call someone gay but I won't force myself to stop saying shit like "That's Gay" cause it comes natural. If I was naturally a racist, I'd openly admit to that because if it's me I'm truth to it to anybody.
But I'm all for civil rights. Equality is something that has to be accomplished or the world will always have base problems but I think cracking down on Rapists and Child Molesters should be a bigger priority because I have no remorse for those types, they are below the dirt type of life. So if I was to target a certain type of someone, that'd be the ones. I have no beef with Gays or Chicks who use to have dicks. Not my first concern but in a time of passion, choices aren't always predictable. You say one thing but if shit went down, saying and doing often change.
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Post by Streets Wilson on Mar 23, 2013 7:15:05 GMT -4
personally, I don't really give a shit whether someone "used to be a guy" or whatever. They can Identify as and become whatever they want. A vag is a vag am I right ? (High five)
Seriously though. It probably wouldn't bother me at all, but I can totally understand peoples frustrations about being hypothetically lied to about it though. You can't just Fuck with a person's brain like that. If they thought you were an actual born woman, and its a problem for them that your not, then you've basically committed rape or some such thing. You have psychologically attacked this person.
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Post by Cid Phoenix 2013 on Mar 23, 2013 9:00:06 GMT -4
Wow, Miss Universe contestant was a dude? (LONG PAUSE) I'd hit it.. I've done worse things in my day, so playing Errol Flynn with someone that gorgeous can't be all that bad.  |
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Post by Evan De Parker on Mar 25, 2013 17:26:47 GMT -4
Reading this, I'm a little disturbed that some people think it's okay to treat people or speak to/of people a certain way just because they're different. You can try to justify it with personal experiences as much as you want-- but that's all it is. Intolerance, and possibly a lack of education or understanding.
In high school, I had a friend that was transgendered. Born Laurie, we called him Lohr. He was physically and legally a woman, but identified as a dude. Even in elementary and middle school when he still went by "Laurie", he dressed, spoke, and carried himself as a male. We poked fun every now and again when the situation allowed, but never thought too much differently of him. This might be because I lived in a small town, and grew up with him my entire life-- but I never understood the difference.
If someone lies to you for over a decade, or what-have-you about any situation, then it's completely reasonable to get upset or angry. It's almost ridiculous not to. I don't think hands should be put on any woman-- and I rarely think it's okay for anyone to put their hands on a man either-- but I try my best to stay out of peoples' business like that. If I SEE a man strike a woman (which I have), then I will speak up (which I have), and do my best to neutralize the situation, but speaking from experience, I know that nothing is ever truly resolved with violence. Unless you kill 'em. But that's not your right.
It's an unnatural procedure and for the longest time, I thought transsexuals were the weirdest, most repulsive thing. Then I decided to educate myself.
Would I willingly be in a relationship with a woman that was born a man? Probably not-- because unfortunately, I haven't trained myself to accept myself in that type of situation. But I'm just one guy.
Do I think that transgendered people and transsexuals should have the same rights as everybody else? Absolutely.
But when we get into sports, we're drifting into a large gray area. I think that's up to the discretion of the commissioners and the opponents/opponents' camp. Some physical traits are difficult, or near-impossible to change, and if I were a natural-born woman then yes-- I would be very wary about fighting someone that was born as a male.
But the world of sports is completely different. There are rules. There are no rules telling anybody to be tolerant or understanding, however. But everyone's situation is different, and sometimes it's best to accept the fact that you can only account for yourself, and your own decisions. Everybody's opinion is his own-- just like everybody's rights are their own.
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Post by amyzing on Mar 25, 2013 17:54:45 GMT -4
This reminds me a bit of the reaction to Chaz Bono was on Danceing with the Stars and how Fox News was making it sound like his being transgendered would confuse the children watching.
I personally failed to see how. Yeah, it may come up that he used to be a girl sure. However, I really doubted it would come up every single fucking time he was on the show.
I mean it's not like Mike Tenay and his need to remind us EVERY SINGLE GODAMNED TNA IMPACT that Rellik was killer spelled backwards. EVERY SINGLE GODAMNED TIME THAT MAN WRESTLED! We get it Tenay, now shut up.
Honestly, I failed to see how or why EVERY time Chaz Bono was on DWTS, parents would tell how he used to be a girl or a girl named Chastity. I mean really? Do you need to pull a Mike Tenay.
Several things:
First of all, women produce testosterone. It comes from their ovaries, where they make estrogen and eggs. It is also why they become sexually aroused. Seriously?
Men produce estrogen in small doeses as well. It is used to regulate certain sexual fuctions, such as maturation of sperm and a healthy libido.
This is basic biology!
Second of all, yes, transgendered people HAVE attempted to qualify for the Olympics. However, these have been male-to-female (which do exist) transgendered people.
International Olympic Committee has a policy on transsexuals. The committee said transgender athletes could compete in the Olympics if they met certain requirements, such as completing genital reconstructive surgery and at least two years of hormonal therapy. They must also have "legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities," such as by a nation's courts.
Kellen Godsey, born Kelly, who has identified as male since 2005, and is on hormone therapy, attempted to qualify for the London games in Women's hammer. He didn't make it. I recall there being an African runner or something that was male-to-female. So it has happened.
And if Michael Phelps became Michelle Phelps, her competing in Women's Swimming and winner would have nothing to do with her having been born a man. It would have everything to do with the fact that Phelps is scion of Posideon the god of the sea.
Third of all and this is the big one. They are transgendered. They are NOT the newborn vampires form Twilight and testosterone is a hormone, not a magic elixir that will make them super strong.
Let's say Tina was born Tim and now she wants to compete in MMA. The fact that she WAS male does not mean that there is all this testosterone in her system and she will now just been tearing through the other women. Or vice versa with a female-to-male transgendered athlete and the estrogen in his system.
When a person goes on hormone therapy, their body changes. Men taking estrogen lose muscle mass and develop female characteristics and can actually look like genetically born women. Likewise, women taking testosterone develop male characteristics, gain muscle mass and such. These hormones are essentially steroids.
These people are literally suffering in their own skin. They do not like the gender they were born as. It feels wrong to them. These people identify with the gender they feel they should have been, not with what they are born as.
There are serious health risks involved as well. Not to mention the social stigma and what not. They legally have to tell they are doing this, and it gets put in the local paper in legal notices as I learned some years ago when a local car dealership owner had a sex change.
This is not something they just woke up and decided to do or did on a drunken dare or as a college experiment or to dominate at a sport. They are doing it to make themselves happy and become who they should be.
And if you are dating one, I'd think it'd come up before the marriage proposal or even having sex. Probably one of those trhings mentioned on first date or meeting. Just saying.
But back to the orginal point of this discussion:
Yes, I would support a transgendered athlete in a competative sport or whatever they are trying to do because I fail to see how their previous gender gives them some sort of advantage.
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Post by Jason Cashe on Mar 25, 2013 20:45:20 GMT -4
I doubt this on all levels. Nobody outright admits it because they have fear of being judged by that before being judged by who they are as a person.
Like I said before, I think all man, woman, regardless of sex or whatever difference they are born with should have their rights. With sports there is a reason we don't have mixed gender sports. And none of us have the power to determine the rules for any of it. So arguing over whats morally right or wrong is fine for opinion or personal choice but it doesn't change rules laid out by those who run something. In fact there are far more important things to fix in this country and the world than this given topic.
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Post by Jason Cashe on Mar 27, 2013 15:18:11 GMT -4
Back to the topic. This Transgender Fighter is 37 years old. "She" was "fixed" in 2006 I believe? So wouldn't that give "her" an advantage a little? I skipped Biology Class, and Math, and well most classes after 10th Grade. (Shame on schools in Washington State not holding people back cause I made it to 12th grade before dropping out)
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