Why was last nights Raw better than Wrestlemania?

[The Smooth One]

Anybody disagree?

[The Soul Of Philly]

The crowd

[The Smooth One]

They were bananas! They got a treat too. That was best raw since the Cena v Punk anniversary raw and that was the best one on years.

[Jules]

It wouldn't have taken much to be better than Mania. Take away the outstanding Punk/Taker match, and the opener involving The Shield, it was a really average show. I feel for anyone who paid for that.

TJ is right, the feel-good vibe was largely down to the hot crowd on RAW last night and their refusal to play ball with WWE. But there was some quality moments in the product too.

- Ziggler's WHC win. (Has a crowd ever marked out so hard for a heel championship win?)
- The really good 10+ minute match between Miz/Wade
- Fandango's post-match saying his name spot while selling the beat down from Y2J had me in stitches.

[The Smooth One]

The Ryback heel turn got a huge pop. Has a face champ ever been so hated like John Cena. Ryback needs a mouth piece maybe Zeb Colter can take him on???

[Level-Two]

This is the first WM I actually didn't watch. Even though I stopped watching wrestling for god knows how long, I'd still tune in to WM out of tradition.

I did however look at the results. It baffles me why you don't do a big briefcase cash in on the biggest show of the year but on raw the next night. The ONLY thing I can think of is that the WWE wanted more eyes to see it rather than at Wresltemania with an outdated PPV structure; which also would explain why Raw may have been better than Wrestlemania, itself.

After hearing this, I had a feeling Ziggler probably lost whatever match he was at WM too just because how the WWE books and I was right. It was a tag match for the tag titles so you don't mind the L here but apparently he was pinned too? Yeah.

Anyways, good to hear the WWE is still putting on good shows. It's a shame the sport is dead to me so I'll never get back into it

[Jules]

Level, you're right. I think it's fair to say these days WWE is concerned more by RAW ratings than PPV quality/buy-rates.

I'd like to see the figures, but I wonder how much money PPVs make for the WWE. I imagine something as big as Mania is profitable, but one a month when they cost $60-70?

As for Ryback, I wouldn't say the crowd was popping so much for Ryback qua Ryback, but because of who he turned on. I know Cole sold it as a heel turn on comm, but I suspect if Ryback had done this to anyone else the response would have been lukewarm. Ryback isn't over that much, at least Mania didn't give me that impression where the crowd were silent during much his match and when they did chant it was 'Sexual Chocolate'.

I've seen Ryback 3-4 times only, but already I can see he's an ordinary talent that's just another one VKM/HHH's big men, but with little else to back it up.

[Johnny Rebel]

In an era where there is no rhyme or reason as to who is the number one contender to the championship, the PPV stuff is useless. You used to purchase a PPV because you'd catch a match that you couldn't see anywhere else... nowadays, the main event of the "go-home" show before a major event is usually the same guys who are scheduled to headline the following week. And you want us to pay money for it?

Honestly, my favorite show of the past twenty years was Money-in-the-Bank when Punk beat Cena for the championship in Chicago. The crowd was absolutely nuts and made the moment that much more special. My second favorite show was last nights RAW, and honestly, I haven't watched an episode of RAW in probably a year. Kudos, WWE.

[Johnny Rebel]

Seriously, listen to the pop. After Dolph hit the Fame-Asser the first time, listening to the crowd count along is the loudest I've heard in years.

Ziggler, who's supposed to be a heel, got cheered louder than any face the WWE's put out in ages.

Really, really, well done.

[Buckson Gooch]

Apr 9, 2013 9:05:06 GMT -4 Johnny Rebel said:

Seriously, listen to the pop. After Dolph hit the Fame-Asser the first time, listening to the crowd count along is the loudest I've heard in years.

Ziggler, who's supposed to be a heel, got cheered louder than any face the WWE's put out in ages.

Really, really, well done.

I thought the same thing. It reminded me of the pop for Lesnar at the Raw after Wrestlemania last year.

The crowd was rabid last year, too. This unaired footage of Daniel Bryan shows it...



Great to see crowds get wild!

[Jules]

Apr 9, 2013 9:05:06 GMT -4 Johnny Rebel said:

Seriously, listen to the pop. After Dolph hit the Fame-Asser the first time, listening to the crowd count along is the loudest I've heard in years.

Ziggler, who's supposed to be a heel, got cheered louder than any face the WWE's put out in ages.

Really, really, well done.

I doubt WWE will capitalise though. No doubt Ziggler will be squashed at some point by somebody bland like Orton or Sheamus.

On a different note though, they need to find Ziggler a new finisher. Neither the fame-asser or that neck breakeer-type move he does are ME level finishers.

[Johnny Rebel]

Apr 9, 2013 9:38:40 GMT -4 Jules said:

Apr 9, 2013 9:05:06 GMT -4 Johnny Rebel said:

Seriously, listen to the pop. After Dolph hit the Fame-Asser the first time, listening to the crowd count along is the loudest I've heard in years.

Ziggler, who's supposed to be a heel, got cheered louder than any face the WWE's put out in ages.

Really, really, well done.

I doubt WWE will capitalise though. No doubt Ziggler will be squashed at some point by somebody bland like Orton or Sheamus.

On a different note though, they need to find Ziggler a new finisher. Neither the fame-asser or that neck breakeer-type move he does are ME level finishers.

I disagree. The Fame-Asser could do the trick... it's pretty similar to the Pedigree, which I think is one of the best finishing moves of all time.

I do agree that Dolph will be buried within a few weeks. The same way I thought they were finally going to listen to the crowds with Santino a few years back at Elimination Chamber. The place erupted as loud as I've ever heard it when he hit the cobra on Bryan... and the next day he was back jobbing to some no-name and squashed any momentum that he might've had.

You can push until your blue in the face but when the fans pick who they want to get behind, you can't ignore it, or you'll end up where you are today with 5-6 "main" guys that most crowds say "meh" to.

[C.J. Gates]

I wonder if Dolph got the big reaction because it was a year of build. A year of near cash ins and everything, and then he does, everyone was waiting for it. Could just be because people hate ADR too.

Ryback's turn only went well because it was Cena. Sadly, if it WAS a heel turn for Ryback, it got the opposite effect overall.

Also...what was the point of Miz vs. Barrett at WM? Miz beats Barret for the IC title at WM and then loses it back to him on Raw?

Could be an interesting Shield vs. Undertaker/Kane/Bryan deal where Bryan finally turns on Kane.

[Jason Cashe]

-- Who says Daniels turns on Kane? I think Kane turns on Daniels to add another "Monster" to the roster because that's all Kane can be on his own.

-- They probably had Ziggler planned to cash in at Mania but they had to know he'd get a Super reaction and that'd take away from any reaction The Rock, Lesnar, or even the Taker/Punk match would have gotten. That'd look bad.

-- I agree that Ziggler needs new Finisher. FameAssEr could work but it's used by people since Billy Gunn as a simple move, Zack Ryder does a Finisher where he hits a Flying Leg Drop and it reminds me of the FameAssEr at times, different but still the same vibe. Ziggler could have adopted the Super Kick, he does it tremendously but for obvious reasons I don't think he'll get it as a Finish. He was the original person WWE wanted to put Ric Flair with and if that had happened, Ziggler would have the Figure Four right now. A move that The Miz has trouble slapping on. Miz and Flair just don't fit together in my opinion...

[C.J. Gates]

Apr 9, 2013 14:49:36 GMT -4 Jason Cashe said:

-- Who says Daniels turns on Kane? I think Kane turns on Daniels to add another "Monster" to the roster because that's all Kane can be on his own.

Yeah that would probably be it. I wrote that with an idea in mind, scrapped the idea and kept the wording. I guess the proper thing to say would be for them to break up.

EDIT: I wonder if the Ziggler thing was a reaction to Rock's injury. Apparently, he was supposed to open the show and hype a Brock/Rock match for WM30 (per reports I've read over at EFK) but flew to LA with the injury. Probably just speculation, but who knows.

[The Soul Of Philly]

No seriously, the crowd. There was nothing different between the content of this RAW and any RAW prior to the road to WM. The matches were still solid and above. You filled an entire arena with wrestling fans, not kids and their parents. My buddy was at the RAW in Philly, without a doubt, he said, worst crowd he's ever seen in Philly. You have an arena filled with people who don't know what they're watching. They know Cena and that's it.

Also, Ryback is over by definition. People react to him coming out, to him wrestling, to him speaking. I called his "feed me more" would become a great crowd involving catchphrase when he first created it. I'm happy his "Finish him" line got over as well. I loved his "fuck you" to Cena. he knew the crowd he was in front of and let loose a bit.

Also, anyone notice the no reaction for Cena? That arena was filled with smart smarks. Don't boo him, they want you to boo him.

[Your JESUS]

I feel Lesnar was supossed to injure Rock so he could go film Hercules movie, but I think Brock might have played rock star so WWE scrambled and just said Rock got injured at Mania instead. Why wouldn't he of known about his injury earlier then an hour before Raw. Sounds more like ego possibly from Brock. 2 out of 3 matches he loses with steps involved...some Monster! Especially with that Cena move where he ruined Cena and got nailed with one move, BS!

["The Real Deal" Ellis Graham]

I feel like Mania was the Corporate idea of what sells whereas the Raw was the fans' idea of what sells.

By the way, the thing that baffles me about Cena is that he ALREADY plays as and exhibits promo traits of a "corporate heel" (guy booed for happily "selling out", most recently Big Show w/ Johnny L when he mini-feuded with Cena). Literally, all WWE would have to do is take a heel GM (VKM, or, and I know I'm a minority, but id love Johnny L. for this) and have him applaud Cena for being Cena. Cena changes nothing. He still laughs at the boos (checks), smiles at his next opponent because he "knows" he'll win (check), and brags about all his work to stay on top when the fans know he's on top because he was chosen to be (check).

Seriously, WWE. Zero effort -> "epic heel turn".

And, as Caldwell has pointed out before, WWE has a PERFECT top face for the "still PG but accommodating the wrestling fans" era.

Daniel Bryan. He can be cartoonish (his work on the kid show Saturday Slam has been spot-on) but he can also be serious, and can absolutely GO in the ring. Plus, his diminutive size is perfect for a face that constantly struggles to "overcome the odds".

I end my rant with this:

When Jerry Jones became GM for the Cowboys, he fired one of football's greatest coaches (Tom Landry) because his genius had grown obsolete, replacing him with a more modern Jimmy Johnson, a successful switch that reestablished Dallas as a dynasty.

This needs to happen to VKM. I like what HHH has done to build the roster (not just NXT, but the Sin Cara move was a great move that SC himself fucked up, not HHH) and I think if Vince would just let Trips take the reigns, a lot of our no-brainer great ideas would come to fruition and another Attitude Era-like popularity could easily return.

[The Main Attraction]

I think something else nobody has pointed out was that Post-RM crowds are always hot, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen more often. I mean before last night I almost forgot what real activity sounded like from the WWE product.

[Michael Jennings]

FAN-DAAAAAAANNNNN-GGGGOOOOOOO!!!!



Just that alone is why this crowd ruled.

[Nathaniel Havok]

Wrestling needs another billionaire with a blank check, to stick it to McMahon. Change the way he does business yet again, and wrestling will flourish because of it.

[Jason Cashe]

If Dixie Carter had given TNA's Reigns to Paul Heyman, TNA would rival WWE.

With that said, Graham has things very well figured out. I agree with every aspect of what he said and Co-Sign it to the fullest.

I have heard from Rajah.com is that Lesnar was suppose to come out during a Rock promo in the ring and setup a Mania match for WrestleMania 30. Possibly with Booker T hinting at it, Rock getting a rematch with Cena, giving them a clear winner. Regardless, I think Ryback has jumped through walls to prove himself. He's over and he clearly fixed his issue early on with lifting bigger men as seen with Henry. Although he lifts differently with bigger men but whatever. I didn't buy that he could lift Henry so I was impressed on that alone.

I like Daniel Bryan as well, he's a great wrestler, PURE wrestler who has found a great attachment to comedy and being a great "Character" with his skills. My only concern is that Management, even Triple H might see him as being too small to be a Cemented Top Bill. I disagree with that but I can see that as being a case.

Antonio Cesaro as well, great build, great talker, has all the skills to fit a WWE brand. He has lost so much as of late but it's against big names and STILL has his US Title so to me it says that Management is giving him the Downs before throwing him into the deep end and really letting dude shine. He is my pick for Breakout for the remainder of the year.

I also want to see The Usos more often in Tag Action. A real Tag Team. WWE needs them if Triple H wants to re-establish that Division.

[C.J. Gates]

Apr 9, 2013 17:25:13 GMT -4 Your JESUS said:

I feel Lesnar was supossed to injure Rock so he could go film Hercules movie, but I think Brock might have played rock star so WWE scrambled and just said Rock got injured at Mania instead. Why wouldn't he of known about his injury earlier then an hour before Raw. Sounds more like ego possibly from Brock. 2 out of 3 matches he loses with steps involved...some Monster! Especially with that Cena move where he ruined Cena and got nailed with one move, BS!

From what I heard, Rock and Brock had agreed to the program leading into next years Wrestlemania, but it was Rock who bailed on the show. I don't know if he was supposed to get injured by Brock, but apparently he was supposed to start the show with a promo, but left for LA and WWE had to scramble to replace it all.

But that's all hearsay from the rumors.

[The Main Attraction]

I have heard from Rajah.com is that Lesnar was suppose to come out during a Rock promo in the ring and setup a Mania match for WrestleMania 30. Possibly with Booker T hinting at it, Rock getting a rematch with Cena, giving them a clear winner. Regardless, I think Ryback has jumped through walls to prove himself. He's over and he clearly fixed his issue early on with lifting bigger men as seen with Henry. Although he lifts differently with bigger men but whatever. I didn't buy that he could lift Henry so I was impressed on that alone.

I agree he's won me over with the lifting of Henry which is no easy feat, So with more time he will continue to be offically one of the top guys. (Cena & Punk can't do it by themshelves anymore, plus it's getting stale.)

I like Daniel Bryan as well, he's a great wrestler, PURE wrestler who has found a great attachment to comedy and being a great "Character" with his skills. My only concern is that Management, even Triple H might see him as being too small to be a Cemented Top Bill. I disagree with that but I can see that as being a case.

Daniel Bryan has always a favorite of mine since his ROH days and I knew he would be star in WWE if given the right chance, My heart had fallen when he released back during the beginning of The Nexus angle but he bounced back. Daniel has always been able to defy the odds, He's gone further then I honestly expected. Hell I mean he's been a Frickin World Champion in WWE, there is no way anyone can take that away from him. So at the of the day he's fine but I hope this comedy stuff doesn't pigeon-hold him back. He's hasn't even crack the surface of his potential, and I can't wait when he does.

Antonio Cesaro as well, great build, great talker, has all the skills to fit a WWE brand. He has lost so much as of late but it's against big names and STILL has his US Title so to me it says that Management is giving him the Downs before throwing him into the deep end and really letting dude shine. He is my pick for Breakout for the remainder of the year.

Cesaro will blow up in due time too but once again only if the writers don't push him to the back burner, they really have a habit of buidling someone for 3-6 months and once their first program is over then the person is jobbing.

Does Ryder ring a bell?

I also want to see The Usos more often in Tag Action. A real Tag Team. WWE needs them if Triple H wants to re-establish that Division.

I'm pretty sure the tag division had its revival 4-5 months ago and that ended with everyone jobbing to Team Hell No, So I'm over the tag division once again due to WWE's booking.

["The Real Deal" Ellis Graham]

The breakout star of 2013 will be Bray Wyatt. I HAVE to believe they've only waited to call him up because he got hurt, then it was WM season.

YouTube his work since coming back. He is running CIRCLES around an already-stacked NXT roster, and if he can bring "The Family" (who also sell their gimmicks excellently) to back him up, he is already on par with heel Mankind, and I don't say that lightly.

I'm also hoping the rumors are false about Taker being a one-time deal on Raw this week. A match with the Shield would be a HUGE rub, not to mention the Extreme Rules buy rates if fans are offered a bonus Taker match, plus in the 6-man environment, Taker wouldn't have to do much.

James Caldwell said the Shield would've been a logical Streak-buster, and pitched Taker/Ryback vs Shield, so getting Taker/Hell No vs Shield is at least a decent consolation prize.

By the way, I am a member of the IWC, and I want The Streak to break. I stand alone.

[Streets Wilson]

Its nice to have a night like that... but is it a good thing that people are going crazy because you had ONE night of crowd reactions that resembled when the product was actually entertaining? If you ask me, (and no one did), Its one of the most discouraging signs you can get that its considered "well done" When the top heel is being cheered and the top face is being booed. What it does is illustrate the fact that Vince Macmahon, or whoever is in charge now is completely out of touch, and needs to get out. Of course, they'll continue to make a profit anyway so they don't have to change a damn thing... In my opinion, it really does say a lot that the most entertaining and interesting part of the show, is the fact that the crowd is actually interested in whats going on....

[Jason Cashe]

Does Ryder ring a bell?

Ryder is and was an Internet Success. He to me at least was never a good enough performer to go over for long. Nor does he have a look that a Nation could get behind. I think he's fucking retarded. But I hate Jersey Shore like anything..

I'm pretty sure the tag division had its revival 4-5 months ago and that ended with everyone jobbing to Team Hell No, So I'm over the tag division once again due to WWE's booking.

There is Tag Team action more now than there has been in YEARS. So how you see it as being ended already is beyond me. Even back in the glory days of Tag Team Wrestling, you had teams who'd hold the titles for a long stretch of time. Only in modern time does a long reign make people see someone as untouchable. When Team Hell No ends, the Tag Teams will start popping back up.

[Michael Callahan]

I would like to point out that ChaChaLaLa, the official theme of WWE's Fandango is currently #11 in the UK top download charts right now.

[Pepsi]

Apr 10, 2013 17:34:38 GMT -4 Michael Callahan said:

I would like to point out that ChaChaLaLa, the official theme of WWE's Fandango is currently #11 in the UK top download charts right now.

That's hilarious, the fans made Fandango a star in one night. His music has become one of the most over things in the WWE. I will be interested to seen if it can carry over. I hope it will because Fandango seems like a pretty good talent.

[Jules]

Apr 10, 2013 17:34:38 GMT -4 Michael Callahan said:

I would like to point out that ChaChaLaLa, the official theme of WWE's Fandango is currently #11 in the UK top download charts right now.

I've been humming it all day, it's doing my nut!

Streets, I think you've nailed it. Although there was some high notes in the product, the hot crowd was essentially a protest crowd - actually that is why it was so entertaining, because they refused to play ball with WWE (even if they did line WWE's pockets in doing so). It should be a worrying sign for the company, but like you said they'll keep making money so nothing will change.