State of Proffesional Wrestling

[Streets Wilson]

I know its not just me... the WWE product has been on a steady decline since about the year 2000. The key word there is "steady" decline, it really somehow JUST KEEPS GETTING WORSE. Mostly due to the fact that they seem completely unable to make new stars, (or they treat their good talent badly, and apparently their bad talent well) They stripped RVD of his titles back when he got caught with weed... RVD... pretty much the absolute best and most exciting wrestler they had on the roster at that point. I never really understood the very clear bias that WWE has for certain talent... I remember Scott Hall was fired because like... cut Micheal Hayes hair or something? But Jerry "The King" Lawler rips up a parking ticket and then runs over a cops foot but that's perfectly fine?

I've gotten off track now... I believe if TNA were to move to Monday nights, they would have a significant chance of doing exactly what WCW did when they made that move. If not, they could do even better. What does everyone else think about this?

[President Jeff]

WWE needs to create better storylines, or let the wrestlers run with their own storylines. The Jericho/Michaels feud was a great feud I thought, and both those guys pretty much did the whole thing themselves. The HBK/Taker feud for Wrestlemania was all them too. The storylines at the moment pretty much suck. Like the whole Big Show/Edge/Vicky Gurrerro love triangle thing.

The only thing good about TNA is its X division guys. But I thin WWE should drop ECW, fire half the girls they have, and fire the useless people off their roster and focus on the new generation of wrestlers like Edge, Christan, The Hardy's, CM Punk and Orton. Cena needs to go heel and stop being like Super Man. And I think they should foucs on a Tag Team division. Tag Team wrestling was great in the up until after the whole Hardy's/Dudleys/Edge and Christian thing

[Level-Two]

I've gotten off track now... I believe if TNA were to move to Monday nights, they would have a significant chance of doing exactly what WCW did when they made that move. If not, they could do even better. What does everyone else think about this?

If TNA wants to offically run themselves out of buisness (in WCW fashion) then I say go for it.

TNA doesn't have a product that can do any damage to the WWE whatsoever. I haven't watched wrestling religiously in months, and from what I've seen, TNA isn't any better than WWE and if I am wrong, they're certainly not too many steps ahead of them.

TNA needs to mark themselves truly as an alternative product. I tune in now, and I see a low grade version of the WWE with bad acting. This is coming from a TNA fan himself.

[Streets Wilson]

May 9, 2009 17:09:51 GMT -4 Level-Two said:

I've gotten off track now... I believe if TNA were to move to Monday nights, they would have a significant chance of doing exactly what WCW did when they made that move. If not, they could do even better. What does everyone else think about this?

If TNA wants to offically run themselves out of buisness (in WCW fashion) then I say go for it.

TNA doesn't have a product that can do any damage to the WWE whatsoever. I haven't watched wrestling religiously in months, and from what I've seen, TNA isn't any better than WWE and if I am wrong, they're certainly not too many steps ahead of them.

TNA needs to mark themselves truly as an alternative product. I tune in now, and I see a low grade version of the WWE with bad acting. This is coming from a TNA fan himself.

I would have to say you are wrong, I believe TNA is multiple times better than WWE at this point... both with story lines and talent. I for one am sick of WWE's whole approach, and most likely will never be a "fan" of theirs again. On the other hand I do at least tune in to TNA every time it is on. I'm just plain SICK of the lackluster story-lines/performances of the so called superstars of the WWE. When Randy Orton kicked Vince Mcmahon in the head a while ago I was very happy. But because I actually thought they were turning Orton into a deeper and edgier Stone Cold... that was not the case...

John Cena... do I even need to say more?

I never liked Jeff Hardy at all because 60% of the moves he does look way to fake (which is saying something in "professional wrestling")

I would also have to say that peoples view of WCW usually seems biased or skewed... the WCW murdered the WWE for a long long time when they went head to head and came incredibly close to putting THEM out of business. The decisions that were made and events that occurred later are another issue entirely

[President Jeff]

WWE should go back to where everyone had a goofy gimmick, I think that would be awesome. I only say that cause thats how it was when I first started watching wrestling and it got me hooked. Imagine John Cena as a Modern Day Duke the Dumpster Drose. Or CM Punk as a Pig Farmer . I'd watch that ;D

[John Green]

If you ask me the true wrestling promotion is ROH in my mind. WWE matches are only good at PPV's and it's rare to see a real good match even on PPV's. Same with TNA. They hardly put on great matches if it isn't a X-Division type match. And i each promotion they lack in 5-star matches. TNA has only had one match that has had it. WWE has only had some when it was WWF (I feel the TLC match with Hardy's/Edge and Christian/Dudleyz should have had it). ROH in other words have won numerous 5-Star matches. In my mind RIng Of Honor rules all.

[Level-Two]

I would have to say you are wrong, I believe TNA is multiple times better than WWE at this point... both with story lines and talent. I for one am sick of WWE's whole approach, and most likely will never be a "fan" of theirs again. On the other hand I do at least tune in to TNA every time it is on. I'm just plain SICK of the lackluster story-lines/performances of the so called superstars of the WWE. When Randy Orton kicked Vince Mcmahon in the head a while ago I was very happy. But because I actually thought they were turning Orton into a deeper and edgier Stone Cold... that was not the case...

Could TNA be better than the WWE as of now? Maybe. Mutiple times better? I think not. They're both shotty products as far as I'm concerned. Isn't Mick Foley WORLD champion right now? Horrible. I agree with you when you say that TNA has the better talent, but they haven't been using them properly as of late. The characters are dull, because TNA does very little to build them properly, especially with clusterfuck booking.

Secondly, Randy Oron is nothing like Stone Cold. His character could never be deeper nor edgier than him. If you think Randy Orton just as edgy (or anywhere near) Stone Cold's character, than just say John Cena is the new rock because it's a much more sensible comparison.

John Cena... do I even need to say more?

Decent worker, draws more than anyone in the TNA roster you forgot to add.

I never liked Jeff Hardy at all because 60% of the moves he does look way to fake (which is saying something in "professional wrestling")

Come on. Virtually every move looks fake if you look and try hard enough. He botches and he's sloppy at times, I'll give you that much.

I would also have to say that peoples view of WCW usually seems biased or skewed... the WCW murdered the WWE for a long long time when they went head to head and came incredibly close to putting THEM out of business. The decisions that were made and events that occurred later are another issue entirely

Meh. The point is Tna's 1.2 rating (or is it a point higher?) cannot compete with raw's 3+ (don't know where it's at now) infact, I am willing to bet TNA's ratings go down should they move their show to Monday timeslot. TNA does not have a solid enough product to swim with the shark. FACT.

[Streets Wilson]

John Cena= decent worker? Maybe compared to the Ultimate Warrior.... Maybe he does draw, but he also does more to alienate people from the product than anyone else as well... and Dreamer does the DVD driver better. Although I think Cena's move may actually be a elevated firemans carry as opposed to a Spicolli driver. As for your response to my Randy Orton comment... I said I thought they were "going in that direction" ... not that he was as deep a character or edgy as Stone Cold. Although... the Stone Cold character was pretty much just: the Sandman. Steve Austin had long blond hair and was going nowhere fast, he spent like a month in ECW, comes out bald and drinking beer... coincidence?

[Level-Two]

John Cena= decent worker?

Yeah, decent worker. Some people would give him even more credit. He's had great matches, you just have the smarkish hate for him.

There is no ''maybe'' he DRAWS. Point blank. Who does he exactly alienate from the product?

[biggs]

While I doubt there will ever be another Monday Night Wars heyday in the near future, I personally feel that while the storyline department has been weak lately, WWE's in-ring product is significantly better than it was during the Attitude Era. Also, since the draft, SmackDown! is completely stacked with talented workers. Sure, they may not have the star power of the RAW wrestlers, but from a workrate perspective, having Chris Jericho, CM Punk, John Morrison, Shelton Benjamin, and so many other solid workers on one show is nothing short of exciting. Maybe I've just been conditioned to not expect classic, five star wrestling matches on free tv very often, but at the very least, I know that when I tune into SmackDown!, I know that I'll get at least one really good match, and several decent tv matches.
On the subject of TNA, I've only watched one TNA broadcast in the last 6 months, and to be honest, it seemed bush league next to WWE's product. Overuse of gimmick matches, 20 billion things happening each segment, and the absolute worst announce team I've ever heard are only a sample of TNA's significant problems. I love AJ Styles and The Motor City Machine Guns, but TNA hasn't really done much to get me excited about any of their other wrestlers. I just watch Style's and The Guns' matches on the internet, because I can't stomach anything else TNA is putting out. It would definately be best for the business if TNA could somehow get their act together and put on a show that could compete with WWE, but they are light years from being able to do that.

[Streets Wilson]

May 10, 2009 22:45:05 GMT -4 Level-Two said:

John Cena= decent worker?

Yeah, decent worker. Some people would give him even more credit. He's had great matches, you just have the smarkish hate for him.

There is no ''maybe'' he DRAWS. Point blank. Who does he exactly alienate from the product?

I say you have a "counter-smarkish" liking of him... he sucks... his gimmick is retarded, he's terrible on the mic: he's had some good matches... against legendary performers who had to carry him through it. I think the most accurate sum of what he is capable of and what he deserves from a crowd is his match against RVD at One Night Stand... I personally think his correct station would be as a jobber, and he is much more appealing as a heel: but that's just one mans opinion.

On him being a draw, yeah, no ones arguing it, but I like WRESTLING. I want to see a WRESTLING match. I want to be surprised once in a while, I want to see a back and forth, I want to look over to my friend watching next to me and not have to be embarrassed I watch the shit, I want to be able to watch the match and be able to see their performance and the moves they're doing the (what I consider) ART of professional wrestling. I want to care what happens next. I really don't want it to have to be a chore to watch wrestling. I sincerely have never encountered one person who did more to make me hate wrestling. Who is he alienating? Me. Dozens of others I know as well. So if you like that type of thing fine... I don't... at all, whatever "that type of thing" is.

[Level-Two]

I say you have a "counter-smarkish" liking of him... he sucks... his gimmick is retarded, he's terrible on the mic: he's had some good matches... against legendary performers who had to carry him through it. I think the most accurate sum of what he is capable of and what he deserves from a crowd is his match against RVD at One Night Stand... I personally think his correct station would be as a jobber, and he is much more appealing as a heel: but that's just one mans opinion.

I never stated I liked John Cena. I'm just saying, he isn't horrible, and has been the best champion in WWE for the past few years, whether you want to admit it or not. You think of the world/WWE championship, and you see Cena. Not CM punk, batista, undertaker, edge, or anyone who else had a world/WWE title rein written in there contracts.

Smarks have a habit of making him out to be the end all and be all of wrestling, as do marks. I am somewhere in between. He's not the greatest in the ring, but can delievers solid matches on a regular basis, and can put on as I said, an amazing match. You say it's because someone is legendary on the other side, fair enough, but does that not say he still has talent? I don't assume I can go out there and put on a show, because I'm working with HBK, or taker. It takes two to tango, both preformers have to carry EACH-OTHER to create a good match.

Cena doesn't suck on the microphone. He can work the microphone better than anyone I can think of currently on the TNA roster. He does have stupid, lame lines that the WWE producers hand him, but given the right script, he can deliver a great promo. Get off of it.

You think his correct position on the show is trully a show opening jobber? The most stupid, ill-informed comment I have heard regarding cena, in a long time. Nothing against you Streets, I'm just reading what you're writing, and it's borderline idiotic.

On him being a draw, yeah, no ones arguing it, but I like WRESTLING. I want to see a WRESTLING match. I want to be surprised once in a while, I want to see a back and forth, I want to look over to my friend watching next to me and not have to be embarrassed I watch the shit, I want to be able to watch the match and be able to see their performance and the moves they're doing the (what I consider) ART of professional wrestling.

I guess we're looking for two different things then. What I look for is storylines, segements AND wrestling. A wrestling match means NOTHING if you don't know the story behind it. I was a huge TNA fan, you don't quite understand. I don't even like the WWE as I believe both companies lack in BOTH departments. I haven't watched wrestling in months, I don't stress myself out about it.

I was like you, throwing my remote at the television because the in ring action lacked. I didn't like cena too much, because his title rein was too long, and he won too many matches. But then, I took a buisness course, and I've learnt how a buisness works. Face it, people looking for pure wrestling match is a smaller minority then those looking for overall an entertainment show. Cena SELLS.

Basically, your bitching about a product that was never really made for you to begin with. It's like watching soap opera, and then complaning that there's no car explosions, or cool special effects, and trashing it from there.

Let me ask you this. It's been on a decline since 2000, how long have you still been watching? Secondly, will you be tuning in next week? Perhaps, I'm wrong. But I do have a feeling you WILL be tuning in; just like many other people with the same take on things as you do. You'll tune in, you'll watch, you'll bitch about it--but Vince still laughs because he appealed to his target-market and current fans, WHILE still geting the people who despise their product to tune in.

It's the ultimate win-win.

[biggs]

I completely agree with Level-One's analysis from the business perspective, though I do disagree with the comment about WWE not being marketed towards the fans of pure wrestling matches. At the end of the day, it still says wrestling on the marquee, so it will always come back to wrestling. While the top of the card is usually filled with the most charismatic, popular wrestlers, there's still a place on the card for the solid, technical matches that wrestling fans adore. As previously stated, I feel that match quality wise, WWE has been on a constant upswing since about 2001 or so. Sure, we aren't getting PPV quality bouts every week on TV, but we shouldn't expect to. The TV shows are a means to get us to order the PPVs, where wrestling companies actually make a huge chunk of their money. I'm currently quite happy with WWE's product, so long as I get a chance to see at least one or two great TV matches a week, I'm good.

[Assassin]

Being a fan of pro wrestling from back in the 1980's I have to say that WWE's programs aren't that bad. They've started to get a little better about putting on more wrestling and less segments. But I will always be a fan of the Attitude era of WWE because of the stars they had and the way they would push the product for the fans.

As far as TNA goes until they get rid of the Main Event Mafia I won't watch TNA. The idea was alright to start off with but it has gotten worse as time has gone on.

ROH to me right now is the best of the three because they focus on the wrestling. There matches are good quality matches that make you actually want to watch wrestling. That's why I'm glad they got there deal with HD Net.

[Streets Wilson]

May 11, 2009 10:51:57 GMT -4 Level-Two said:

I say you have a "counter-smarkish" liking of him... he sucks... his gimmick is retarded, he's terrible on the mic: he's had some good matches... against legendary performers who had to carry him through it. I think the most accurate sum of what he is capable of and what he deserves from a crowd is his match against RVD at One Night Stand... I personally think his correct station would be as a jobber, and he is much more appealing as a heel: but that's just one mans opinion.

I never stated I liked John Cena. I'm just saying, he isn't horrible, and has been the best champion in WWE for the past few years, whether you want to admit it or not. You think of the world/WWE championship, and you see Cena. Not CM punk, batista, undertaker, edge, or anyone who else had a world/WWE title rein written in there contracts.

Smarks have a habit of making him out to be the end all and be all of wrestling, as do marks. I am somewhere in between. He's not the greatest in the ring, but can delievers solid matches on a regular basis, and can put on as I said, an amazing match. You say it's because someone is legendary on the other side, fair enough, but does that not say he still has talent? I don't assume I can go out there and put on a show, because I'm working with HBK, or taker. It takes two to tango, both preformers have to carry EACH-OTHER to create a good match.

Cena doesn't suck on the microphone. He can work the microphone better than anyone I can think of currently on the TNA roster. He does have stupid, lame lines that the WWE producers hand him, but given the right script, he can deliver a great promo. Get off of it.

You think his correct position on the show is trully a show opening jobber? The most stupid, ill-informed comment I have heard regarding cena, in a long time. Nothing against you Streets, I'm just reading what you're writing, and it's borderline idiotic.

On him being a draw, yeah, no ones arguing it, but I like WRESTLING. I want to see a WRESTLING match. I want to be surprised once in a while, I want to see a back and forth, I want to look over to my friend watching next to me and not have to be embarrassed I watch the shit, I want to be able to watch the match and be able to see their performance and the moves they're doing the (what I consider) ART of professional wrestling.

I guess we're looking for two different things then. What I look for is storylines, segements AND wrestling. A wrestling match means NOTHING if you don't know the story behind it. I was a huge TNA fan, you don't quite understand. I don't even like the WWE as I believe both companies lack in BOTH departments. I haven't watched wrestling in months, I don't stress myself out about it.

I was like you, throwing my remote at the television because the in ring action lacked. I didn't like cena too much, because his title rein was too long, and he won too many matches. But then, I took a buisness course, and I've learnt how a buisness works. Face it, people looking for pure wrestling match is a smaller minority then those looking for overall an entertainment show. Cena SELLS.

Basically, your bitching about a product that was never really made for you to begin with. It's like watching soap opera, and then complaning that there's no car explosions, or cool special effects, and trashing it from there.

Let me ask you this. It's been on a decline since 2000, how long have you still been watching? Secondly, will you be tuning in next week? Perhaps, I'm wrong. But I do have a feeling you WILL be tuning in; just like many other people with the same take on things as you do. You'll tune in, you'll watch, you'll bitch about it--but Vince still laughs because he appealed to his target-market and current fans, WHILE still geting the people who despise their product to tune in.

It's the ultimate win-win.

Well... I do still tune in but I usually change the channel literally the second I hear Cena's music. It could be worse, I hear from the legends on the round table discussion on WWE on demand that Cena has a tremendous respect for the legends, so its not say he doesn't "deserve" to be there in that sense, its just its been several years, and I'm DONE listening him to say "come get some" and "the champ is here"

[Level-Two]

I completely agree with Level-One's analysis from the business perspective, though I do disagree with the comment about WWE not being marketed towards the fans of pure wrestling matches. At the end of the day, it still says wrestling on the marquee, so it will always come back to wrestling. While the top of the card is usually filled with the most charismatic, popular wrestlers, there's still a place on the card for the solid, technical matches that wrestling fans adore.

For the most part, you are correct. There is still ROOM for the product to host great technical matches. However, this isn't there main-goal. Entertainment comes first for their product. This is what they sell the most. This is the aspect they use largerly to drawn NEW fans in. Wrestling defiently comes with it, but the entertainment based spin, is what seperates them from the other promotions including TNA.

Take a subway and Mr. Sub comparison. They both virtually are selling the same type of food, sub sandwhiches. What makes subway ahead of Mr. Sub is that it's FRESH. They allow you to watch them as they make it. It's what puts them over the edge in comparison to their competition. In the end though, they still sell subs.

Heavy entertainment is what the WWE uses to keep them on top, and the wrestling is included.

A product like ROH is more wrestling based, and less emphasis on entertainment, although it's still there.

Please note that by entertainment, I mean the storylines, the segements, and the characters they protray. I understand that WRESTLING itself is a form of entertainment.

For me, the companny in which can do equally well in all areas, is what I will go too. I need something that strikes the balance.

[President Jeff]

A lot of the WWE talent now is people who have some sort of look but not talent, so WWE sends them to their development fed and they make them into their "WWE Style" type wrestlers. If you look back during lets say the Attitude Era, guys that came into it, a lot of those guys are guys who came from ECW. And Paul heyman had a great eye for talent. He brought a lot of wrestlers over to america from Mexico and Japan. If it wasn't for Heyman, we maybe would have never gotten RVD, Chris Benoit, Eddie, Sabu, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho. That group of the next set of wrestlers set to carry the business.

TNA is finding those wrestlers. ROH is find those Wrestlers. But WWE isn't looking for the best wrestlers, I think they are looking for the best looking people to represent their company in a soap opra kind of way. People that could branch of into maybe TV shows or movies, cause Vince gets money from that. I mean, 5 years from now, even 10 years, who can you see really carrying WWE. They don't have any at the moment I think that can. I doubt Cena, Triple H, Jericho, HBK and Edge will still be around in that time. Can you see CM Punk main eventing Wrestlemania 35 against Matt Hardy for the World Title? WWE needs to find the wrestlers that they can build the company around for the future, and right now, they don't have that

[Streets Wilson]

May 11, 2009 20:39:08 GMT -4 President Jeff said:

A lot of the WWE talent now is people who have some sort of look but not talent, so WWE sends them to their development fed and they make them into their "WWE Style" type wrestlers. If you look back during lets say the Attitude Era, guys that came into it, a lot of those guys are guys who came from ECW. And Paul heyman had a great eye for talent. He brought a lot of wrestlers over to america from Mexico and Japan. If it wasn't for Heyman, we maybe would have never gotten RVD, Chris Benoit, Eddie, Sabu, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho. That group of the next set of wrestlers set to carry the business.

TNA is finding those wrestlers. ROH is find those Wrestlers. But WWE isn't looking for the best wrestlers, I think they are looking for the best looking people to represent their company in a soap opra kind of way. People that could branch of into maybe TV shows or movies, cause Vince gets money from that. I mean, 5 years from now, even 10 years, who can you see really carrying WWE. They don't have any at the moment I think that can. I doubt Cena, Triple H, Jericho, HBK and Edge will still be around in that time. Can you see CM Punk main eventing Wrestlemania 35 against Matt Hardy for the World Title? WWE needs to find the wrestlers that they can build the company around for the future, and right now, they don't have that

GOOD POINT

[President Jeff]

Thanks. I have those once in a while

[BDC]

Saying you are sick of Cena saying "The Champ is Here" etc is like saying you were sick of the Rock saying "If ya smeeellll", or Austin saying "And that's the bottom line" ...

It's his catchphrase, and it pays the bills. WWE is obsessed with merchandise, and guess what ... people buy the Cena t-shirts etc.

At the end of the day, he's been given the opportunity to be one of the main guys, so what's he going to do, say "no thanks, I'd rather not because my wrestling skills aren't the best?". Look at Hogan, he couldn't wrestle his way out of a brown paper bag, but he knew how to sell his persona to the max.

The WWE care about money first, wrestling second. TNA are trying their best, but the show looks cheap, the storylines are crap, and Mick Foley is the champ ... OMG! (or he was when I watched it last time - then again, I don't know who's worse, Sting or Foley).

I also don't see the hype regarding RVD or CM Punk. They're ok, but I'd rather Cena or Edge on the mic, and rather watch Shelton Benjamin and John Morrison in the ring. Benjamin and Morrison wipe the floor with most of the WWE talent in the ring anyway, and most of the TNA talent (AJ Styles and the Motor City Machine Guns aside).

Meh, if people don't like what either show puts on offer then don't watch it lol.

[Slade "The Main Man" Craven]

Well I am not sick of hearing Cena say the champ is here, im sick of him period. He is not a headliner, in fact even he knows he is not a professional wrestler. He is Vince's little Ken doll which is sickening. People like Austin and The Rock knew what they were doing in the ring, they could perform more than just 6 six moves. Cena needs to take some time out of the limelight and let other, more talented people headline the show. I will always say this Santino can work the mic and he will be the next 'People's Champ" its just who he is, his charisma is enough to run the show, and when Vince finally pushes him, he can begin to pic up ratings. Santino does not need the WWE title to be their star either, just push him for more air time, not over use him. Thats what happened with Cena. Or maybe, just maybe Vince will go back to just giving away money.

[BDC]

Well, put yourself in Cena's position. Say your manager came up to you and said "Ok, I want to make you the person that is going to carry this company forward. I'm going to give you more money, make you a household name, and regardless of what people think of you, I am going to stick by you through thick and thin, regardless of your performance."

What would you say?

So no, Cena doesn't need to step away from the limelight at all. In my opinion, he should milk it for as long as he can, get as much money in the bank as he can, and retire at an age where he can move around with as little pain as possible, as opposed to being a broken down man (physicaly) like Austin and Bret Hart, or even get to the stage where the lifestyle he leads results in his premature death, because that's an unfortunate trend that seems to happen.

He'll probably go into making films like the Rock did, and good luck to him.

Hogan only knew 6 moves, and he's still the most famous wrestler on the planet. I'm not his biggest fan in the ring, but he was a clever bastard (recent family issues aside) and made a lot of money.

And going back to Cena, for someone who's "not a proffessional wrestler", he ain't doing that bad really is he lol. X number of WWE titles, 2 movies, and is Vince's favourite at the moment ... no, you're right, he should just get out of the limelight and let other people take over from him ...

As for Santino, he rocks. I love him, and he could very well be the next people's champ.

Everyone's entitles to their opinion, it's just that ALL of the facts prove that Cena is a success. The more people boo him, the more Vince will ram him down the haters throats. The more people cheer him, the more he'll be on TV. So, keep hating him, keep booing him, keep whatever, fact is it won't make a difference, 'cause Cena's here to stay ...

So ...

"THE CHAMP IS HERE!!!!"

lol