|
|
Post by Streets Wilson on Sept 10, 2009 1:12:10 GMT -4
look... its not fucking complicated. there was Judo, a grappling and submission style. They came out with BJJ which supposedly has an emphasis more on ground work and less on throws. I think Judo is better... now if for some extremely strange reason you don't get that... then your right, there IS no reason to continue further
|
|
|
|
Post by Streets Wilson on Sept 10, 2009 1:34:22 GMT -4
Boxing and wrestling can be all you need to kick someone's ass in MMA. very true |
|
|
|
Post by Level-Two on Sept 10, 2009 1:47:10 GMT -4
no buddy... bjj also has a de-emphasis on ground joint locking and certian things like that because like I said its designed for sport and even more so than Judo is. And Judo is the BJJ to real Jujitsu (japanese). Why are you admitting you don't know as much as me and then trying to say things like you do. I meant exactly what I said its "watered down", its not as good... theres really no debating it, one is designed to kill people (japanese Jujitsu) one "can" be used to kill people (judo) and one restricts the rules and things your not allowed to do even making it virtually useless when it comes down to reality. Its a bullshit style... there really is no debate. There is only the truth which is BJJ is desinged to be ineffective. The changes it made from judo were designed almost specifically to enhance its quality as a spectator sport. (hence practicing how to do shit the wrong way) Brazillian Jujitsu is the laughing stock of the martial arts world... They do shit like claim to invent certain submission holds, when really... as everybody already knows their taken directly from Judo. Although most of what I'm saying is unfair to BJJ because its specifically designed for sport like that, your somehow trying to say its the best, when clearly thats impossible because its not even a real art: its just a even more watered down sport version of Judo. You need to learn how to fucking read; because this wasn't even my intial point. My intial point was a more well rounded fighter should be more entertaining to you, as a more well rounded fighter is a better competitor. Not which style was more effective. Please learn how to seperate who you are responding too. The only reason I replied is because I thought you refering to grappling styles like Wrestling/Judo, specifically. Not Japeneese jujitsu. And stop with the personal attacks. Your making yourself look foolish. Boxing and wrestling can be all you need to kick someone's ass in MMA. very true THIS is the type of response my comment was directed too. And yet, you agree with this stupidity. It kills your whole point, and again... You can box and wrestle all you want; but if you don't know how to defend yourself against (submissions, I didn't use BJJ, happy now?) then your going to get tapped out. |
|
|
|
Post by Streets Wilson on Sept 10, 2009 1:50:57 GMT -4
whatever, i guess its just a series of misunderstandings
|
|
J-Mart
Midcarder
i PuT oN FoR CHi CiTY
Posts: 384
|
Post by J-Mart on Sept 10, 2009 6:44:05 GMT -4
no buddy... bjj also has a de-emphasis on ground joint locking and certian things like that because like I said its designed for sport and even more so than Judo is. And Judo is the BJJ to real Jujitsu (japanese). Why are you admitting you don't know as much as me and then trying to say things like you do. I meant exactly what I said its "watered down", its not as good... theres really no debating it, one is designed to kill people (japanese Jujitsu) one "can" be used to kill people (judo) and one restricts the rules and things your not allowed to do even making it virtually useless when it comes down to reality. Its a bullshit style... there really is no debate. There is only the truth which is BJJ is desinged to be ineffective. The changes it made from judo were designed almost specifically to enhance its quality as a spectator sport. (hence practicing how to do shit the wrong way) Brazillian Jujitsu is the laughing stock of the martial arts world... They do shit like claim to invent certain submission holds, when really... as everybody already knows their taken directly from Judo. Although most of what I'm saying is unfair to BJJ because its specifically designed for sport like that, your somehow trying to say its the best, when clearly thats impossible because its not even a real art: its just a even more watered down sport version of Judo. You need to learn how to fucking read; because this wasn't even my intial point. My intial point was a more well rounded fighter should be more entertaining to you, as a more well rounded fighter is a better competitor. Not which style was more effective. Please learn how to seperate who you are responding too. The only reason I replied is because I thought you refering to grappling styles like Wrestling/Judo, specifically. Not Japeneese jujitsu. And stop with the personal attacks. Your making yourself look foolish. THIS is the type of response my comment was directed too. And yet, you agree with this stupidity. It kills your whole point, and again... You can box and wrestle all you want; but if you don't know how to defend yourself against (submissions, I didn't use BJJ, happy now?) then your going to get tapped out. Stupidity? I think wrestling and boxing alone could beat someone. It's like if your wrestling is better than someone's BJJ, and your boxing is better than their kickboxing or whatever, you can beat them. |
|
|
|
Post by Level-Two on Sept 10, 2009 9:47:18 GMT -4
Your BJJ must be flat out shit. Of course though, I should've known your threw out a flat statement with no detail behind it. You make it sound like the fighter only needs to TRAIN wrestling and boxing, and win a load fights. The truth is, if your stepping into the ring or cage with a white belt in BJJ as an Amatuer, you'd be tapped out. Any good trainer won't let you fight until your a purple belt in BJJ.
So no. You can box and wrestle all you want; if you don't know how to defend a submission, your useless on the ground. Submission defense is an art just like Submission Offence.
I can guarantee you; the minute Brock Lesnar got Tapped out by Mir; that's the first thing they worked on.
I don't know how effective comparing two different styles really are. Since, I stated it before. Is Brock Lesnars wrestling better then Mirs BJJ? How do you determine something like that?
I guess you have to wait and see Brock Lesnar be tapped out by Mirs submission and watch Brock Lesnar roll ontop of Mir punching the daylights out of him, to realize. All I am saying, is if you put a wrestler on the ground with a BJJ artist, and the wrestle isn't too good at defending, he'll get tapped out before he can end the match. That's all I'm saying. Submissions come quick, and then easy if your opponnet cannot defend. Punching and wearing down your opponnet takes a bit more time.
And of course, they are exceptions. You can put a boxer in the ring, and he can perhaps end it in the first twenty seconds with a big right hand; just don't let that boxer go the ground, or he's done.
That is my point.
|
|
BDC
Semi-Main Eventer
Monday Night's Just Got Interesting!
Posts: 515
|
Post by BDC on Sept 10, 2009 10:40:42 GMT -4
What a stupid argument lol.
Streets mate, you have to stop going off on one all the time. If you don't like watching UFC, don't watch it, it's as simple as that really.
I study the art of Ninjutsu, and I try to encorporate what I learn into real life situations. It's a martial art - a dance if you will, where we learn moves that are ineffective as they are shown, and then encouraged to go away and think outside of the box, and to adapt it to real life situations. The ultimate message is to to get into a state of mind where you avoid conflict altogether, as is the same with every martial art.
Judo is a sport, simple as. There's nothing wrong with it, and I'm interested in it and am in no way shape or form slagging it off.
BJJ is a sport.
When you get into a fight, irregardless of how many years you've been training, or how many belts and awards you have, I guarentee you that the majority of the fight will be punching, kicking, and grappling, Your 95% of all of your training goes out of the window, and survival mode comes into play. The 5% that remains is what makes the difference between possibly getting killed and surviving. If I have no other option other than fight - and trust me, it takes a lot for that to happen, I've got one thing on my mind - doing whatever it takes to stop that person potentialy killing me. I bite, pinch, pull hair, put my fingers in their eyes - whatever it takes.
In MMA they train to fight in an octagon. They condition their bodies to be able to cope with that kind of pressure. I guarentee you that if it was a real situation, 95% of what they have learned will go out of the window after they get clocked with something they're not used to (biting etc), although if they clock you, you're in big trouble due to their training.
A person used to fighting in the street will probably take a MMA fighter most of the time in a real fight situation in my opinion, and a MMA fighter would rape a street fighter in the octagon.
MMA is a sport, proper jujustsu is a martial art. Two fucking completely different things.
Now everyone chill, daddy's spoken lol.
|
|
"The Hottest Shit Going"
Semi-Main Eventer
Lights out, thats all she wrote, cancel Christmas, the kitchen is closed!!!
Posts: 515
|
Post by "The Hottest Shit Going" on Sept 10, 2009 11:58:06 GMT -4
Pull flying guard, or an arm bar with someone on the street and don't have it locked in solid...the back of your head will be leaking brains when your skull is bounced off the pavement. Street fighting is soooo different then MMA the sport.
Proof Kimbo Slice....put some gloves on the guy(Killed his striking power somewhat) and have him rumble with guys that are trained and I'm telling you he isn't shit.
On the street if that wilderbeast wanted my wallet, I might think for just a brief second about giving it to him prior to manning up only to get jacked in the chin.
I don't know why I am responding to this thread...ohh yeah cause I want to be involved....YEAH!!!
It all comes down to game plan.
Lesnar came into the first fight with Mir like a bull ready to just clobber the fucking guy. He madea mistake, and paid with a loss....which he doesn't seem to hadle real well.
Next fight he took Herring to the distance just to see if he could so he says. He overpowered him and made his face look like ground chuck.
Randy, he tried to stand with Randy a bit, ate some shots that looked like he might have been a little hurt. He had a decent game plan for that fight.
Second Mir fight a serious game plan. Control Mir with his size, and smash the facial tissue untill he can take no more. The guy is huge, a boat load of wrestling skill. I think he has no stand up game other then trying to land a hamhock. He can pretty much do what ever he wants inside the cage. I think he mostly has been working on submission defense. You aren't going to arm bar the guy a few people have tried and just shrugs his arm off like their were babies. His weekness is stand up and his fucking ego. Carwin's camp is going to get in Lesnars head that he can't stand with Shane. Brock's ego will take over, and he will attempt to stand which will be dangerous for Brock, the dude has some good striking. I just hope if he wants to keep the belt the first crispy punch he eats he takes Carwin down, and Hulk Smashes untill the ref calls him off.
See guys...size does matter, if you know how to use it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Streets Wilson on Sept 10, 2009 13:08:03 GMT -4
well I agree with you BDC. But if you do study Ninjitsu I believe your training would pay off in the street. Although its the nature of the beast, someone could just get kicked in the balls and none of their training would matter at that point in time. Someone I knew (not well) was jumped in the city and got the shit kicked out of himself bad. I beleive there were 4 or 5 of them, they were stomping and kicking him on the ground and shit and unlike pro wrestling that shit can kill you. The only thing he could think to do and don't read this any further if your squeamish but he grabbed one of them by the balls and just put the fucking death grip on them. He still got beaten to a bloody pulp... but I pretty much guarantee that one dude will think twice before jumping somebody else, after he has the reconstructive ball surgery or whatever: the point being that's how gritty it is on the street. Some arts are designed specifically for use inside the ring. BJJ by nature is one of them, as is Judo, but I happen to feel that Judo is effective both in and out of the ring as are a lot of arts such as boxing and wrestling. And Level One I'm pretty sure Matt Hughes defeated Gracie with amateur wrestling (or least thats what he claimed in an interview) And on the original topic of this thread I think Brock Lesnar will be the bane of all the BJJ practitioners because he knows to handle them now, you just pound their face in. Level One, wrestling and boxing are perhaps the most dangerous combination around, although I'm not referring to amateur wrestling (Ken Shamrock crippling peoples ankles type of wrestling) Modern MMA is somewhat similar to Pankration which is basically just boxing and wrestling and a lot of people think that all martial arts stem from it meaning it had it all. In real wrestling theirs plenty of submissions involved, hell, they invented that shit as far I know. And this goes back to my point, BJJ is one of hundreds of submission arts, and I happen to feel its not one of the better ones... So I don't know why you continue to somehow imply that if you don't know BJJ then that somehow means you can't defend against or use submissions, its just one style.
|
|
|
|
Post by Streets Wilson on Sept 10, 2009 13:14:45 GMT -4
but to wrap my whole thing up, anybody can get defeated by ANYBODY on any given day. There's even some people who don't need martial arts at all, their just bad motherfuckers, black belt or not they'll get the job done. Train in whatever you wish as long YOU feel it will help YOU if you ever need it to. Or, if you just want to do a sport and have no interest in self defense: well I guess that's cool too...
|
|
|
|
Post by Assassin on Sept 10, 2009 14:27:40 GMT -4
I know this might be a little off topic. But what does everyojne think about the announcement that Brock will fight Shane Carwin at UFC 106 in November?
|
|
"The Hottest Shit Going"
Semi-Main Eventer
Lights out, thats all she wrote, cancel Christmas, the kitchen is closed!!!
Posts: 515
|
Post by "The Hottest Shit Going" on Sept 10, 2009 15:49:59 GMT -4
I responded. Should be good test for Lesnar, I honestly want to see his durabilty and see the measure of his chin. It would be amazing to Brock dropped in a nasty way, I'm talking bisping status when Hendo crushed him with his right.
|
|
|
|
Post by Level-Two on Sept 10, 2009 16:01:42 GMT -4
It seems like you STILL do not know how to read. I said if you cannot defend yourself against SUBMISSIONS period. You agreed with Joe, when he said all you need is boxing and wrestling to be sucessful, which dead wrong. For fuck sakes, dude, get over it.
He's fought 4 fights; I doubt he's impossible to tap out. But yes, you can guarantee he still knows and trains submission defense. Brock Lesnar is an exception, as he outweighs his opponnets by how many pounds before a fight? He laid on Mir and pounded his skull in; not everyone has that luxury.
Please, just listen to what you agree to. Joe said boxing/wrestling is ALL a fighter needs to kick ass (and be sucessful?). Which means, there is no need to train in any other areas of fight style. Maybe this is not what you were trying to agree with, but that's how that statement came across.
|
|
|
|
Post by Streets Wilson on Sept 10, 2009 16:45:07 GMT -4
It seems like you STILL do not know how to read. I said if you cannot defend yourself against SUBMISSIONS period. You agreed with Joe, when he said all you need is boxing and wrestling to be sucessful, which dead wrong. For fuck sakes, dude, get over it. He's fought 4 fights; I doubt he's impossible to tap out. But yes, you can guarantee he still knows and trains submission defense. Brock Lesnar is an exception, as he outweighs his opponnets by how many pounds before a fight? He laid on Mir and pounded his skull in; not everyone has that luxury. Please, just listen to what you agree to. Joe said boxing/wrestling is ALL a fighter needs to kick ass (and be sucessful?). Which means, there is no need to train in any other areas of fight style. Maybe this is not what you were trying to agree with, but that's how that statement came across. fair enough, but what I was trying to get at is, (like I've been saying the whole time) is obviously I don't think you don't need submission defense... thats retarded.... I'm saying you can learn submission defense however you want, and wrestling is one way because it does have submission defense... extremely good submission defense... didn't you ever learn about wrestling and how in Greece people used to get killed all the time in Pankration matches from choke holds and shit and all the stories of how dangerous and deadly the submissions were to the point that if someone got a hold of their throat they would immedietly just tap out before even trying to get out because they were so scared of getting killed? That's what really wrestling is: submissions and takedowns, obtaining the dominate position and exploiting it, boxing and wrestling in essence are mma, and BJJ is just a rehash of it. Were seeing a sort of modern (ancient)Olympics in the UFC (because they current Olympics don't have Pankration although organizations have been campaigning for years to bring it back)and all I'm saying is I like to see a more diverse roster than the one they have in the UFC in terms of styles... Obviously BJJ is good at sumbissions, thats not what I was ever debating, theirs just some legendary Jujitsu guys out there. And so basically going back to my way original point: I like to see style vs style, instead of Brazillian Jujitsu guy vs Brazilian Jujitsu guy: I want to see the Jujitsu guy vs the Judo guy, or the Jujitsu guy vs the wrestling guy... or the Jujitsu guy vs. the any other type of submission art guy: I fucking loved the Shamrock vs Gracie fights for that reason. All I'm saying is I don't like that 85% of the roster does the same shit. |
|
|
|
Post by Streets Wilson on Sept 10, 2009 16:53:51 GMT -4
and its for those reasons that I LOVE watching Cung Le fight
|
|
"The Hottest Shit Going"
Semi-Main Eventer
Lights out, thats all she wrote, cancel Christmas, the kitchen is closed!!!
Posts: 515
|
Post by "The Hottest Shit Going" on Sept 10, 2009 19:21:28 GMT -4
I honestly missed half this thread. I thought it was about UFC/MMA Heavyweights..thus my coments on Brock Lesnar. Aparently the conversation took a turn and I stepped right into it....(Backs out slowly hoping not to get hit with any bottles or random punches)
|
|
