My Anti-W.W.E. rantings.

[brandenharvey]

Actually, you're just good. You're just in the main event as much as HHH. But you earn it. I just had to put that in there. lol

[Jesse Nuñez™]

Actually I walked in on Level One and Jeff once...

I couldn't do that to get to the top so I left.

=p

[SalTal]

I'm sure everyone's heard of schadenfreude. It's one of those words people drop to make themselves sound 'educated' or 'ensmartened'. A word that people should get familiar with is saudade.

Saudade is a label for a feeling of longing for something that's gone. And it's all through this thread. In fact, I think it's at 90% of all wrestling-related websites I go to. Everyone is on the verge of crying to have the 'old ways' come back. I'm largely in the Level-One camp, though maybe a bit further.

I mean, yeah, everyone wants to rip on WWE. Fine, do it. Whatever, I don't lose sleep over it. But at what point will people actually do something about it? Yes, ratings have dropped significantly. Yes, story lines are 'different' (I'm hesitant to use boring because ... well, I'll get to it). Yes, the mold of the 90's/00's 'wrestler' has changed. But even after all this, I would argue that the core following of WWE is still watching.

The peripheral/casual viewer is the person who stopped watching completely.

The people who 'grew out' of wrestling stopped watching completely.

And that's where the drop in ratings comes from.

Who's left? The core following. Some of them might have tuned into TNA, and good for them. But the large majority of the wrestling fans are the people who grew up with in, largely, with the Attitude Era being the height of the business.

Now when you have that core following, the people who have seen the highs and seen the lows, of course you're going to get feelings saudade. You've seen the business at a time where it was cool. Where it related to you. Most of the people complaining now could say that their teenage years, their growing years, were encapsulated in what the Attitude Era was all about. And not to mention all these 'greats' who were still wrestling, and wrestling well.

There's just one problem: Things change.

The WWE, changed. They tried new things. Ok, Invasion blew. And yeah, brand split didn't work as well as we would have hoped. But there was still wrestling. And there were some pretty sweet matches happening. Story lines weren't as riveting, but that's because the WWE was changing.

People complained about that. So now the WWE is changing again.

And you know what? It's a good change in my opinion. The WWE can't survive on going hardcore and violent (see: ECW). It can't survive by clinging to the past (see: WCW). It has to reboot, so to speak.

The first smart move? Go PG.

We, collectively, might think that sucks. But we're not the target audience anymore. We're not the market. At the best, we only spend whatever a month to buy the PPV. We don't buy shirts every couple of months. The caps. The wristbands. The toys. We might buy the games, but we don't buy all the crap that WWE puts out as well. The money for WWE is in this generation of kids coming up.

Look at it this way. The pre-Attitude era, the early 90's, the late 80's, that sucked kids in. Your simple story lines, your lack of blood, your basic wrestling, your lack of profanity and whatnot. That's what got you in. Your parents didn't care if you watched it because hey, it gave them two, three hours off at night.

Then as you grew up, the WWE did too. The Attitude Era came in at the right time for you.

Now, the WWE tried to cater to us all, who kept growing up. The Attitude Era had to come to an end. Otherwise it gets boring and redundant. So they tried to do what? They tried new things. The brand split to create internal competition. The Invasion to bring over the WCW and ECW fans. They tried to create an adult product (keeping the adult elements of the Attitude Era, but developing it). And it failed.

I would say it failed because we no longer were the profitable demographic. I mean, the casual viewer was going to tune out when Austin and Rock left because they were never into it for the wrestling, rather the personalities. And we can all accept that Austin and Rock were once in a lifetime people, so it's useless saying "We need people like Austin and Rock!" And the people who grew out of it were going to do that anyway.

I mean, interest in wrestling can be a very fickle thing for some people. But I digress.

The people who stayed, as I said, were the core people. And the core, they stopped making wrestling popular and profitable. I mean, how many WWE things have you actually bought in the past year?

Then think if you're more or less profitable than the kids who wants the John Cena shirt, the key chain, the wrist bands, the cap, the toy ... and then wants it all again when the WWE bring out a new line.

That's who the WWE need to cater to: the kids. They needed to go PG because, frankly, it makes sense business wise.

Why I hold out hope is that these kids will eventually grow up. They will eventually hit the 'attitude' age. And then the company will have to make a decision. Do they remain PG and be a kids' alternative to MMA, forever being so? Or do they continue to evolve. When they make that decision, I'll make my decision on whether I start watching WWE again.

Sure, I watch Raw every now and then. I used to watch Smackdown more regularly when Jericho, Punk and his group were on it (and let's be honest people, that was a good storyline until the end, so there is some talent in all this). But I've largely tuned off. And I don't watch TNA at all. I'll watch RoH, Shimmer, some AAA and PWG if I can find the stuff. But for the most part, I just stay informed, not entertained.

So condemn WWE for going PG if you like. I'm hardly going to be one to stop you. But at least recognise it as a business move. That it's an investment in viability. Because if the company did what we wanted it to do? It wouldn't live for another five years.

And, for the record, we all know that's the same reason why Juan Cena is around. And they're not trying to be tricky or whatever. If anything, they are making fun of themselves.

Must we recall Mr. America ...

They don't think we're stupid. If anything, they are probably thinking most of their fans are smarter than they actually are. I doubt a majority of core fans know what a parody is ...

As for bashing NXT, that's got to be the most fresh idea (ignoring that it's an evolution of Tough Enough) on WWE. It's creating new talent for crying out loud! Everyone, though the past 5 years, cried about how main events are always HHH, Batista, Cena. And then, when you a new idea, a new stable, and something different going on, people start saying that it sucks.

They put a belt on Miz. New, different, interesting, cuts great promos, and has proper heat. Plus, it's got everyone talking about it. He's a hit with the new target audience, so great move WWE. I'll admit it, I got a bit excited at the end of SS when I assumed Miz would come down. And then I went a bit crazy when I read that he cashed in on Raw. So much so that I actually made an effort to watch the show.

Daniel Bryan is getting built up. Drew McIntyre would have been built up if he wasn't an ass. Sheamus is just about built up. Barret is just about built up. Same with Morrison. I mean, we all know it doesn't happen over night. And it's hardly a defense for WWE having shot themselves in the foot, not having built anyone up over the previous 5 years. I think we also need to acknowledge that the WWE didn't exactly anticipate Lesnar, Beniot, and Guerrero going the way they were going. If you still had those three, you could have continued to build up wrestlers for the main event while still having main eventer vs main eventer.

In saying that, Edge, Punk, Orton, and yes, even Cena, were people that they built in the past 5 years or so. So it hasn't been all bad.

I think my rambling has come to an end. What I think I meant to say was that most people seem to be suffering from saudade. Everyone thinks back to when they enjoyed things the most and that's when it was best, which means now completely sucks. The reality is it's not that bad these days. And if it was as bad as is made out, then people would turn off. I weened myself off because it wasn't as good as I wanted, but not as bad as it would need to be for me to completely give up. It's still entertaining, and BDC said. But I find some other things more entertaining now, so I watch them.

I go back to what Level-One said to finish off: I'm convinced that no matter how bad it gets, most will continue to watch. It's obviously not bad enough yet that everyone's going to stop watching ...

[BDC]

That's what I was trying to say, but through the use of far less words, because I'm not that clever

Very nicely put, and I agree with it all.

[Level-Two]

Well, just for the record... I watched about half of raw.

It hurt to see how painfull bad, quite frankly, awkward the King of the ring tournament is. It's as if, they feel obligated to embarass the tradition every year. The John Cena segment was pretty good. I think he's far more tolerable after a year of not hearing about him. Also, a TLC WWE title match. Are the WWE; TNA'ying it with the gimmick matches, these days? I enjoyed the Diva's match. I don't care what goes on in a wrestling ring, as long as Maryse is in it. Main-event was better then expected; but trash on TLC standards. Speaking of Standards, the WWE apparently has none. Micheal Cole is the biggest troll on earth. I like that. CM Punk can't announce for shit, sorry man!

All in all, I expected to die Monday Night... so it wasn't as bad as I thought. Still, I can tell by the vibe of the show, it's not really good, either. I saw nothing that would make me watch next week, other then the fact Miz is champion and I've had my money on him for a long while now...

I'll end my expirement here and go back into the dark. I like my eyes and would prefer not to carve them out with my finger nails trying to sit through an episode of T-N-FUCKING-A! Do they still shout during every promo to convey, FUCKING EMOTION?

This post was supposed to sound snarkish. I really do mean everything I say, though.

[The Pack]

Basically, my point of veiw is this, the Miz was nothing on Tough Enough, Morrison was the best part of M.N.M., why could they not put the push on Morrison? Then they go and down play EVERY wrestler ever to exsist by having Sheamus win not only two W.W.E. Championships in his first year but K.o.t.R. as well? Seriously what the fuck is with that?

[President Jeff]

From what I understand, Miz is a company man, kinda like how John Cena is. Vince likes that hence the push.

And for the record Level One, Punk on Commentary is awesome, just some of the stuff he say's is great. Such as "King Kofi Kingston has a nice ring to it, but not so much the initials"

[biggs]

I'll be honest, I'm one of those kind of fans who'll never bail on the WWE. I love the fact that The Miz is the champ, as he's my current favorite performer in the WWE. Is it perfect, no, but is it still a lot of fun, yes.

As far as all the love for the Attitude era, I go back and watch some of the matches nowadays, and they just don't compare. Short spotfests abound, a lot of them. I greatly prefer matches with good psychology, which WWE is able to provide more often than TNA nowadays.

Although for me, ever since Eddie Guerrero passed away, wrestling just hasn't been the same.

[Level-Two]

Dec 1, 2010 19:26:08 GMT -4 President Jeff said:

From what I understand, Miz is a company man, kinda like how John Cena is. Vince likes that hence the push.

Is company man another word for bending over and taking it up the ass?

[biggs]

Miz does a lot of promotional work for WWE, going to radio stations and doing a ton of interviews. He's up before the crack of dawn to do telephone interviews and the like. He's really dedicated to WWE. Cena is the same way.

[BDC]

I'd love to hear CM Punk and Matt Stryker provide commentary on a really big match.

I think they are fantastic, and extremely entertaining personaly, but hye, everyone's got their own opinion, and who am I to tell them what's right or wrong.

I liked Cena's tribute to the late, great Leslie Nielson ("don't call me Shirley"), and the segment involving him was great. Loved Koslov screaming at the Nexus lol!

I like the thought of Shamus winning King of the Ring. I don't see why people hate him personaly, or why they hate The Miz. The only problem I have with Miz is his finisher - it sucks balls. A lot of Orton's appeal is his music and the RKO - fact.

I also have to mention Santino - one of the funniest guys on tv at the moment. He cracks me up, and keeps me entertained.

Morrison is getting better on the mic, and is absolutely amazing in the ring. I'd love to see a Morrison/CM Punk feud.

As for Miz being a company man, good for him, and good luck to him. There's nothing wrong with "sucking up" to the boss, as long as you put in the hours and work hard.

[brandenharvey]

Dec 1, 2010 20:50:20 GMT -4 BDC said:

I'd love to see a Morrison/CM Punk feud.

Where have you been? They HAVE feuded. They put on great matches together.

[Assassin]

I think what he might mean by that is he'd like to see Punk when he comes back from injury take on Morrison now that Morrison has gotten better on the mic.

[BDC]

Dec 2, 2010 4:02:19 GMT -4 Assassin said:

I think what he might mean by that is he'd like to see Punk when he comes back from injury take on Morrison now that Morrison has gotten better on the mic.

Yeah

Actualy, I think I missed the feud, because I can't seem to remember it at all. Was it on Raw? I very rarely watch Smackdown, so if it was there I probably missed it (or was it on ECW, never watched that).

Anyone know what happened to Batista? Is he injured yet again? Say what you want about him, he looks the part, and he is one of the those people that you really wouldn't want to piss off in real life. His wrestling skills aren't the best, and he doesn't have many amazing matches, but his mic skills are a lot better as a Heel, and I'd rather watch Raw with him on it - especialy with Cen out (or whatever's happening with him).

[SalTal]

Punk and Morrison was for the 'ECW' championship way back when ...

Batista retired, right?

[President Jeff]

The Punk/Morrison feud I think took place around the time Benoit went crazy

And I think Batista Retired. Or he wanted out of the biz to try out MMA.

[Tia Harribel]

Sheamus and the Miz are HHH butt buddies. I don't see shit in either of them.

[brandenharvey]

I like The Miz. Sheamus, on the other hand, sucks. The only reason I'm appalled at The Miz's title reign is the way they're booking it. He's good enough to be Champion. I just think they're making him look like a weak Champion.

[biggs]

That's the point of Miz's run, though, is that he's supposed to be a weak champ. It sucks, but it's the story they want to tell with him. Also, realtalker, where did you get your info about The Miz being Triple H's "butt buddy." I haven't heard anything of the sort.

[JD Storm]

Dec 2, 2010 12:54:23 GMT -4 President Jeff said:

The Punk/Morrison feud I think took place around the time [name removed by World Wrestling Entertainment] went crazy

And I think Batista Retired. Or he wanted out of the biz to try out MMA.

there, fixed that for you.

[brandenharvey]

Dec 2, 2010 22:23:02 GMT -4 JD Storm said:

Dec 2, 2010 12:54:23 GMT -4 President Jeff said:

The Punk/Morrison feud I think took place around the time [name removed by World Wrestling Entertainment] went crazy

And I think Batista Retired. Or he wanted out of the biz to try out MMA.

there, fixed that for you.

lol. That was great. I think it's garbage what WWE did to Benoit. Going crazy doesn't negate all of his accomplishments prior to the double murder/suicide.

[SalTal]

Taking out your personal opinions on the matter, what WWE did in that regard was completely the right thing. Could you imagine the reaction they would get if they pretended nothing happened? If they kept on refering to Benoit?

Maybe it took them a little longer than they needed, but 'erasing' Benoit, then slowly bringing him (and his trademarks) back in to be the minimal that he is now - that's something I can get behind.

Because, at the end of the day, every flying headbutt, every hit he took, and every one he dished out, they all contributed to the end result. You glorify his contribution (which is all of that aforemention), then you're still glorifying what eventually would come to happen.

[brandenharvey]

After O.J.'s trial, the NFL didn't take him out of the record books. He still holds records in the NFL. Whenever someone comes close to breaking his record, they say the record is currently held by O.J. Simpson. And he killed his wife. How is that different?

[Tia Harribel]

Dec 3, 2010 1:40:06 GMT -4 @brandenharvey said:

After O.J.'s trial, the NFL didn't take him out of the record books. He still holds records in the NFL. Whenever someone comes close to breaking his record, they say the record is currently held by O.J. Simpson. And he killed his wife. How is that different?

He was aquitted by a jury of his EQUALS. Besides they were divorces for YEARS, why would he suddenly kill her? wouldn't have done that years prior?

Also HHH & Shawn Michaels like The Jizz & Shame-us. THerfore they're all butt buddies.

[Matt Ward]

Triple H is the one that discovered Sheamus, as for the MIZ he got his start in the business on Tough Enough and worked his way up to the top of the company.

as for the Jomo vs Punk fued i would love for them to fued to see who would be the number one contender for the WWE title, since all three men fued for a shot at the title in ECW.

Now what i think is going down in the E, is that Triple H is going to return to face Sheamus which means another King of the Ring winner vs the King of King's match where the King of King's is going to get the win so he can turn heel.

Now that my two cents on the damn thing.

[JD Storm]

Dec 3, 2010 1:35:07 GMT -4 SalTal said:

Taking out your personal opinions on the matter, what WWE did in that regard was completely the right thing. Could you imagine the reaction they would get if they pretended nothing happened? If they kept on refering to Benoit?

Maybe it took them a little longer than they needed, but 'erasing' Benoit, then slowly bringing him (and his trademarks) back in to be the minimal that he is now - that's something I can get behind.

Because, at the end of the day, every flying headbutt, every hit he took, and every one he dished out, they all contributed to the end result. You glorify his contribution (which is all of that aforemention), then you're still glorifying what eventually would come to happen.

there's a difference between glorifying a killer & acknowledging any accomplishment they've had. i can see not making reference to him anymore then necessary, not wanting to show footage of him & so on, but to completely ignore what he did isn't necessarily the right answer either.

on the OJ scenario, i'll just say that an acquital doesn't equal innocence. legally, it means he can't be sent to prison for the murders.

i'm sure most of you have heard of cases were people are let out of prison after many years because it's discovered they were falsely convicted. in some cases, evidence comes out years after a conviction, proving the inmate really was innocent. other cases, it's proven that some form of misconduct occured. you name it, there's been many examples of people going to jail for crimes they didn't commit.

with that said, don't confuse an acquittal for innocence.

[Level-Two]

Dec 3, 2010 1:40:06 GMT -4 @brandenharvey said:

After O.J.'s trial, the NFL didn't take him out of the record books. He still holds records in the NFL. Whenever someone comes close to breaking his record, they say the record is currently held by O.J. Simpson. And he killed his wife. How is that different?

Truth.

The fact that he was aquitted is very irrelevant to Brandens point. The only reason the NFL would even CONSIDER removing a record holders position due to killing someone else, is negative press. They could give less then two shits, otherwise. So although he was aquitted it is STILL believed by 90% (figure of speech here) believe he was guilty of the murder. I'd say, virtually every mainstream press source takes the same stance.

Still, with that said--- even if he was guilty, I doubt they'd remove the record.

The difference is actually the fact that the WWE is a buisness in entertainment, not a ligitmate sport. It has elements of being a sport, so don't cry hardcore wrestling fans--but at the end of the day, it isn't a ligitmate sport. So in turn, the WWE did what they did because of the negative press. If they could get away with it, don't for a second think they wouldn't make money off benoit.

The fact is, they don't need to ''remember'' Benoit in any kind of way. Maybe a few DVD specials on WWE.com is what people are hoping for? Because in today's WWE where the majority of people are watching are kids--their attention span, doesn't last longer then a two hour show, nevermind several years ago. The average fan cares about the then and now--perhaps, it's why most are oblivious to the shit it's turned into, not having spent their time watching wrestling it's golden years.

And I'm out.

[JD Storm]

you brought up another point that needs mentioning. WWE is so worried about trying to get the kids watching that they've completely forgotten about the rest of the market. WWE forgets that their biggest success usually comes when they try to please the most possible people, not just a segment.

as a kid, they had stuff that would please kids, teenagers, young adults & even some of the older adults. you could get goofy characters like Ultimate Warrior, follow that up with characters like Bret Hart, Mr. Perfect or The Million Dollar Man. you'd get a love story, such as Randy Savage & Miss Elizabeth. good tag team matches frequently happened. you could typically enjoy matches from the opening match to the main event.

[SalTal]

Dec 3, 2010 1:40:06 GMT -4 @brandenharvey said:

After O.J.'s trial, the NFL didn't take him out of the record books. He still holds records in the NFL. Whenever someone comes close to breaking his record, they say the record is currently held by O.J. Simpson. And he killed his wife. How is that different?

I'm hardly a spokesperson for the NFL, but one could easily justify it as being completely different fields. Sport and sports entertainment are very different, I think we can agree. And the notion that they can be treated the same is a bit silly. The sporting teams don't really own the shows that they end up appearing on. WWE owns the show. The sports team isn't responsible for people mentioning OJ; the WWE is responsible if they want to mention Benoit.

The distinction between sporting team and sport is substantially different to the distinction between WWE talent and the WWE.

With that said, I advocated for the principle of measured time with responses if you looked carefully. I said that the immediate removal of all Benoit and then the subsequent re-introduction (to a limited degree) was, in fact, the right thing to do. And the level they are at now, to me, is fine. If you go to WWE.com right now and search for 'Benoit' do you know what happens? You actually get results. Do you know how many? 19 pages at 10 results per the page, giving us a grand total of 190 results (I know, math whiz, right?). And some of them are even discussing the actual murder! Of course, you get your history as well.

So the complaint that Benoit has been scrubbed from the WWE just doesn't hold any water. If I can go to their website and find 190 pages that link to him, then he still exists in the WWE. And, if you're so desperate to see him, go and watch the DVDs that are still out there that have him. It's not like the WWE snuck in at night and swapped your DVDs, right?

What I think people don't do is try to figure out what their actual problem is with the situation. No one could possibly be for a Benoit tribute show. But yet, a tribute show would be a tribute to his contributions to the business. So why are people prepared to say no to that, but yes to having his matches be regularly shown whenever his name might come up? Or to put his name alongside other people who are celebrated within the company? I think if people think about it logically, you'll actually find that you laregly agree with what the WWE has done/is doing.

The argument stems from, in my opinion, simple WWE bashing. I mean, people find something to dislike and it becomes the worst thing in the world. One person is the champion, the whole company sucks. Storylines are boring, the whole company sucks. There's a character in the main event that I don't like, the whole company sucks.

[JD Storm]

i don't know about anyone else, but i would've found something else to bash WWE for besides Benoit. i could start with how they haven't done anything in years. i could bring up how none of their current "superstars" (i use that term loosely) have any real personality. in fact, most of their wrestlers have cookie cutter personalities.

let's also bring up that whenever Triple H or John Cena wrestle, they rarely lose. even when it would make sense for them to lose, for the sake of a storyline, they won't. there's a reason why Cena is often referred to as Superman. you could do just about anything to him, including dropping a nuke on his lap, and he won't job to it.

saying that anyone is using Benoit as a way of bashing WWE is a lousy example, IMO. you state that WWE put Benoit back on their website. doesn't mean much. when Benoit's father stated that he felt Benoit's incident was likely caused by all the years of trauma to his head, WWE pretty much went out of their way to deny any responsibility. didn't matter that part of his brain was actually tested, showing that the father's claims may have something to it.

personally, i don't think WWE takes head traumas all that seriously. Mick Foley recently stated on an interview that he messed up his head because of all the head injuries he took. i don't think i need to state just what Foley went through during his time in WWE. WWE didn't seem to care all that much when Nowinski fucked up his head. why would they care about any injuries that Benoit or future stars have taken for WWE? only reason we're not seeing anything traumatic happen now is because of the PG rating.