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Post by "Supersonic" Branden Harvey on Aug 8, 2015 18:35:25 GMT -4
I can't in good faith get behind this lynch. I wouldn't exactly call it a lynch, as I'm the only person that's voted for him. lol |
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Post by SalTal on Aug 8, 2015 19:42:04 GMT -4
I'm inclined to agree with Kurt, to an extent. We're all returning to Mafia and for all we know Crusher was the Brandon Harvey of his last fed hahaha!
Given how much attention he is getting, I would hedge my bet with Kurt's theory: He's getting so much attention that he is a eager and excited town look to sniff out a lead or Godfather that - if investigated - won't turn up town anyway if someone/the Cop investigates him Night 1.
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 8, 2015 19:43:58 GMT -4
...what I find to be curious about Crusher's play is that he's F.o.S.-ing both Kaji and SalTal for theorycrafting, as he called it, but yet my post which began all of it is not being called into suspicion at all. Am I exempt because I brought it up first with a brief post? Furthermore, why is expanding on my point of inquiry something to be considered suspicious when most first day posts are just dicking around and voting for Branden for nonsensical reasons? Though if I'm being honest, 'budding with Kaji' because Branden added a little to his theory of who could be third party is nonsensical from where I sit. F.o.S. : CrusherEverything I'm seeing suggests not so much aggressive scum hunting as it is 'aggressively throw around posts in the hopes of muddying the waters'. We apparently have two very different definitions for "Muddying the water". As I believe trying to surmise that we have a third party only distracts from ACTUALLY scum hunting. And in previous games I've played have been Mafia strategies for "We can muddy the waters by throwing around the possibility that there is a third party so that scum interactions aren't so clear cut". Some of the best scumtells are early game, because scum know they can get away with it because everyone (even obtuse town) will buddy up and say "It's just Day 1/Just Early Game/Just Joke Voting Stage" so therefore we shouldn't take anything anyone says too seriously. I strongly disagree with that line of thinking. But for the record: I don't like how you're so quick to sweep under the rug the suspiciousness of Branden and Sally's posting thus far. Because if you were town you shouldn't be blindly trusting anyone and just assuming at face value that their Day 1 posting is innocent. Unless of course, you have inside knowledge of their alignments. Which to me could mean you're scum and they are town or all three of you are scum and previously strategized laying bread crumbs to confuse us with the possibility of a third party. And then after I'm done typing out my stream of consciousness I realize that we have all of Branden, Kaji, Sally AND Kris all surmising about third party roles. And you can't ALL be scum. Le Sigh. Unvote.However, if you had any conviction whatsoever as to your suspicions of me you should of been voting me instead of merely using a Finger of Suspicion when your vote is a stronger form of pressure. So something tells me you know more than you're letting on. Vote: Kris |
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Post by "Supersonic" Branden Harvey on Aug 8, 2015 20:23:01 GMT -4
Once again, I can't get behind Crusher's logic here. I say vote him.
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 8, 2015 21:07:03 GMT -4
Once again, I can't get behind Crusher's logic here. I say vote him. You're going to have to explain why my logic is not sound. I unvoted you for the time being because it's not possible that so many people could all be scum if half the players in the game are all theorycrafting about the possibility of a third party. And I'm voting for Kris because if she really felt like I was suspicious she SHOULD be voting for me. Pointing fingers of suspicion around with no conviction behind them is scum tactics because it's softball scumhunting. Point a few fingers but don't actually get your hands dirty with a vote because you want to wait and see if people will follow your suspicions first. I don't play safe and cautious. Unless you've been blessed with a night action voting is your only weapon. And I use it liberally. |
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Post by "Supersonic" Branden Harvey on Aug 8, 2015 21:15:45 GMT -4
The FOS is used because the person doesn't want to vote. What if other people jump on the vote and you didn't want that person lynched because you weren't certain they were scum. You just thought they were acting scummy. Here's what I think:
You voted for me because you were hoping to get a bandwagon lynch. When that didn't happen you voted for Kris, hoping for the same thing. I believe you're scum looking for a town lynch today. I could be wrong. But I don't think I am. I voted for you because, due to your play, I honestly believe you're scum. Period.
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Kris
Midcarder
There's no lie in her fire.
Posts: 342
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Post by Kris on Aug 8, 2015 23:22:11 GMT -4
And I'm voting for Kris because if she really felt like I was suspicious she SHOULD be voting for me. Pointing fingers of suspicion around with no conviction behind them is scum tactics because it's softball scumhunting. Point a few fingers but don't actually get your hands dirty with a vote because you want to wait and see if people will follow your suspicions first. I don't play safe and cautious. Unless you've been blessed with a night action voting is your only weapon. And I use it liberally. I'm not voting for you because if my theory of town to scum ratios is right (6/3), then mislynching on Day One puts us at an even steeper disadvantage on Day Two for reasons that I hope are obvious-- ah Hell, I'll just flesh it out so that you can't continue to spew nonsense about what I'm 'really feeling'. 1) There's probably some kind of kill option on the mafia side. We lynch a townie, scum kills another one-- we go to 4/3, which makes railroading and ending the game absurdly easy. 2) I'm not going to automatically assume the cop's going to check you since, in my experience, the smarter play would be to check themselves so that they can be sure they're sane before they start pointing fingers. On a side note, if you want to talk about 'experience' dictating how you play and whatnot... you specifically said you were voting for me, but yet you never actually did so. Seems to me that you're blowing even more smoke than before. |
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Kris
Midcarder
There's no lie in her fire.
Posts: 342
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Post by Kris on Aug 8, 2015 23:27:57 GMT -4
E.B.W.O.P.: ...and upon actually loading this thread on my laptop instead of my phone, I see that Crusher did indeed put down the vote. I retract that bit.
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Post by "Supersonic" Branden Harvey on Aug 9, 2015 0:01:48 GMT -4
Unvote.However, if you had any conviction whatsoever as to your suspicions of me you should of been voting me instead of merely using a Finger of Suspicion when your vote is a stronger form of pressure. So something tells me you know more than you're letting on. Vote: Kris Actually, he did. |
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 9, 2015 0:17:23 GMT -4
The FOS is used because the person doesn't want to vote. What if other people jump on the vote and you didn't want that person lynched because you weren't certain they were scum. You just thought they were acting scummy. Here's what I think: You voted for me because you were hoping to get a bandwagon lynch. When that didn't happen you voted for Kris, hoping for the same thing. I believe you're scum looking for a town lynch today. I could be wrong. But I don't think I am. I voted for you because, due to your play, I honestly believe you're scum. Period. I don't know why I have to spell this out again but apparently my last post went right over your head so let me try again. I voted for you because I got scumvibes of you buddying with Kaji. I retracted my vote after I admitted that it's not possible for ALL the players that were agreeing with a third party set up could be scum, because there was more than 3, which kind of kills my theory that it was all scum trying to muddy the waters of scumhunting efforts by suggesting we have to worry about a third party. Follow so far? I then vote for Kris because she used Finger of Suspicion instead of voting for me which I perceive as soft ball scumhunting. I also don't find the excuse of "I don't want to get you quick lynched" as valid because With 9 players and SUPPOSEDLY 3 Mafia, the only way I'd be quick lynched is if somehow she AND Branden were town and the remaining 3 Mafia jumped on the bandwagon and outed themselves in hilarious fashion. Point is, voting for someone at this stage isn't dangerous. In fact, it's the ONLY way to get answers and reactions. Accusing early voters of trying to get quick lynches is ridiculous because unless you have the Charisma of Jesus Christ you're not going to convince 4 other players in such a short period of time to vote for a guy based on gut feelings and scumvibes. |
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Post by "Supersonic" Branden Harvey on Aug 9, 2015 0:36:26 GMT -4
The FOS is used because the person doesn't want to vote. What if other people jump on the vote and you didn't want that person lynched because you weren't certain they were scum. You just thought they were acting scummy. Here's what I think: You voted for me because you were hoping to get a bandwagon lynch. When that didn't happen you voted for Kris, hoping for the same thing. I believe you're scum looking for a town lynch today. I could be wrong. But I don't think I am. I voted for you because, due to your play, I honestly believe you're scum. Period. I don't know why I have to spell this out again but apparently my last post went right over your head so let me try again. I voted for you because I got scumvibes of you buddying with Kaji. I retracted my vote after I admitted that it's not possible for ALL the players that were agreeing with a third party set up could be scum, because there was more than 3, which kind of kills my theory that it was all scum trying to muddy the waters of scumhunting efforts by suggesting we have to worry about a third party. Follow so far? I then vote for Kris because she used Finger of Suspicion instead of voting for me which I perceive as soft ball scumhunting. I also don't find the excuse of "I don't want to get you quick lynched" as valid because With 9 players and SUPPOSEDLY 3 Mafia, the only way I'd be quick lynched is if somehow she AND Branden were town and the remaining 3 Mafia jumped on the bandwagon and outed themselves in hilarious fashion. Point is, voting for someone at this stage isn't dangerous. In fact, it's the ONLY way to get answers and reactions. Accusing early voters of trying to get quick lynches is ridiculous because unless you have the Charisma of Jesus Christ you're not going to convince 4 other players in such a short period of time to vote for a guy based on gut feelings and scumvibes. I understand what you're saying. I, however, don't believe that that's what you're doing. Honest to God, lynch me and two town will be dead. Three, if you count the scum kill. But I can almost guarentee that Crusher will be scum, if you lynch him. In fact, if he doesn't, go ahead and lynch me tomorrow. |
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Post by Reaver on Aug 9, 2015 1:22:52 GMT -4
I have my role. So, here's my thoughts: I don't really buy the current push against Crusher. It reeks of a gung-ho player wanting to get the action in early - on day one. Seems likely to meet that if Crusher were sitting in a scum QT right now, they'd be saying something along the lines of "shut the Hell up and don't cause trouble." Crusher's game is the antithesis of a Mafia strategy, and for those reasons, I can't in good faith get behind this lynch. If we're seriously going to entertain this idea, investigate Crusher tonight and be done with it. What does tickle my fancy is some of the subtle dirt-pushing towards Crusher so early on. It's not even day two, and I can't help but feel at least one person in this FoS/vote party is Mafia looking to lay groundwork (aka "Look! I was suspicious of him from the beginning!). It's just a bad sort of tango to dance to. More from me later. which is y he shut up. just sayin..... there is no push with 1 vote btw. |
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Post by Reaver on Aug 9, 2015 1:25:34 GMT -4
ebwop
this isnt helping town by any means and is nothing but a distraction. personally i wanna wait til everybody checks in first b4 throwing out some efk experience to this game....
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Post by Kaji Fireson on Aug 9, 2015 1:26:32 GMT -4
Technically we're saying there are three non-town, not three mafia. I've never yet seen a set up where a third party and the mafia collaborate and/or share win conditions. So with 2 mafia and a third party (which is what I suggested as the possible ratio) it would be very hard to get a quick kill at all, because players from three distinct groups with three distinct win conditions and no knowledge of each other and no way to deliberate (barring any mafia QTs) would have only the thread to decide on who to vote for.
Since we're hitting the ground running, why don't I evoke the last remaining tropes I can think of?
1) Branden with the "lynch me and two town are dead" card. Very typical and it rings hollow every single time. Being uttered by Branden does nothing to change this, surprisingly enough. </sarcasm>
2) Where's Cyn at? I think she is the only one who has not checked in since roles went out, and I really want to get her take on the way things have progressed. Unless she is laying low because...
DUN DUN DUNNNNNN~
The obvious answer is "Because she's mafia?" but she's also hurt, something she's made no secret on the twitter box. But maybe she's using it as a cover to not say much and out herself? OH GOD THE THEORIES WEAVE CIRCLES AROUND MY HEAD
Have we got all the APW Mafia tropes out of the way, or have I missed one that someone would like to invoke at this time?
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Post by Reaver on Aug 9, 2015 1:29:43 GMT -4
ya, rebel said he was gonna catcgh up and come back....so theres that  |
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 9, 2015 2:01:57 GMT -4
Once I get home I can actually look back at the game and start doing more than just answering posts most directly towards me. I know I have a lot of thoughts on everything that's went down so far but I'll try to be succinct.
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 9, 2015 2:36:52 GMT -4
Ok so it seems like I've jumped the gun on how you guys personally play Mafia, as this is my first game with you all. I'm not as familiar with these tropes of "Branden always plays bad" or "We find Fingers of Suspicion as town play" and "We often have set ups that include third parties so speculation of such isn't scummy".
You guys have me at a bit of a disadvantage. As the things I've learned that are scumtells from my own Mafia experience seem to be perfectly normal townie behavior for you guys. I play an aggressive scumhunting game with liberal use of votes, while you guys seem to be used to the line of thinking that one vote on a guy instantly means "OMG he's trying to quick lynch people!".
So I'm kind of at a loss here.
To Kurt: Could you elaborate more as to why you oppose Brandens vote on me?
To Reaver: Why is the discussion between Kris, Branden and I a distraction? What are your tells between us and what would you suggest be a better use of our time as a topic of discussion?
To Kaji: What's with all the Cyn related WIFOM? Are you posting just for the sake of posting because you literally used a lot of words to say nothing...again.
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Post by Kaji Fireson on Aug 9, 2015 3:31:08 GMT -4
To boil down my post, I said "Hey look, patterns. Would anyone else like to fall in line?" I might be saying nothing, but there's a lot of nothing flying around, which you have been quick to point out.
Specifically about Cyn (I don't do acronyms that well bud, so forgive me for not addressing it), I'm saying that it's possible she might be laying low, letting us fight with you and taking the easy way to night one.
Yes, it's nothing definitive, but the only definitive things I can say are "lol Branden" and "Man Crusher's making enemies fast."
Take the following paragraph with a grain of salt: I've been in a few APW Mafia games, but not all of them, not by a long shot.
Out style of play goes something like
"Joke around for the first day, or sometimes only the first part of the first day, until everyone's checked in.
Check to see if Branden has flubbed. If so, nail him to the wall and see what flips. If not, leave him alone to see what he comes up with, probably nail him to the wall day two.
Night one: investigators investigate themselves, see whether they are sane or not. (Not a perfect test, but only one game I know of has ever employed a naive or paranoid cop, and only because everyone was fucking cops.)
If day one was a town lynch (odds are good it will be), the pool of suspects is narrowed. If scumhunting works during the day, great. If not, focus on the suspect pool night two because investigators know if they're sane or not.
Repeat until endgame."
I am not saying it is a perfect plan, nor is it complete, but it is the one we usually go for, and it seems to work out alright. What's troublesome is that, once we have a few games down and everyone has a decent read on everybody else, everybody starts to know when they're being genuine and when they're trying to act genuine. That's when the mafia has to get real creative.
(The more experienced APW mafioso are welcome to correct me if I am wrong.)
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Post by SalTal on Aug 9, 2015 3:59:26 GMT -4
Like Kaji, I too am suspicious of the quiet people.
Rebel throws in a "Catch up soon" to stay alive in the game and to provide himself some cover ("I checked in, but I was busy while Crusher drew attention away from me ...") if he is Mafia. Reaver got pseudo called out after his simple check-in post that fanned the flames of the Crenshaw debate, thus providing the Mafia more cover.
I am tempted to look at the quite people, personally. We've had two check-ins that are more suspicious than Crusher, in my opinion.
What are these check-ins? It's strange that they just come in, throw their check-in post - which, mind you, also throws suspicion on Crenshaw - and continue to step behind the ruckus that Crenshaw has made.
And let's not forget that Arkia hasn't checked in either - something Kaji managed to point out quiet well.
Mind you, I don't think the Crenshaw discussion is a waste of time, I think it's potentially one of these two scenarios:
1. The Mafia see that Crenshaw is currently painting a target on his back and are fuelling this as a distraction (ie. Reaver)
2. The Mafia see that we Town are consumed with Crenshaw and are happy to let the Town build up this fire so that it ends in either a Day 1 lynch of a Townie and then Day 2 we are all focused on tearing apart the vote list - of which they won't be a part (ie. Rebel, Arkia) of OR Day 1 ends with no lynch but Day 2 we continue the same argument after the Town was busy investigating themselves/Crenshaw and they got a risk-free night kill.
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 9, 2015 5:18:12 GMT -4
See I was going to go on the attack something fierce about Kris suggesting the investigator investigate themselves Night 1 because I find that as a complete waste of a night action. But I couldn't express that belief without making a giant wall of text analyzing what possible results a Sane, Insane, Paranoid or Naive Cop results could pop up, making a self investigation utterly pointless.
So I'm glad someone explained that is a normal thing to suggest/happen. I cannot express enough how much I think that is a ridiculous idea, but at least it's "normal" and not "scum trying to get the investigator to waste his night actions".
For now I'm going to Unvote until I hear what the likes of Rebel and Reaver have to say.
I will say that I think Branden is town. His kneejerk vote for me, and his follow up kneejerk response of "If you kill me you'll have two dead townies" despite having almost zero pressure on him read to me like paranoid newbie town responses from Mafiascum.
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Post by "Supersonic" Branden Harvey on Aug 9, 2015 8:50:43 GMT -4
It's been awhile since I've played Mafia, by the way. This is the first time since CWC closed down. Anyway, I'm headed to work. I'll check in when I get home.
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Post by Kurt on Aug 9, 2015 9:09:34 GMT -4
I have my role. So, here's my thoughts: I don't really buy the current push against Crusher. It reeks of a gung-ho player wanting to get the action in early - on day one. Seems likely to meet that if Crusher were sitting in a scum QT right now, they'd be saying something along the lines of "shut the Hell up and don't cause trouble." Crusher's game is the antithesis of a Mafia strategy, and for those reasons, I can't in good faith get behind this lynch. If we're seriously going to entertain this idea, investigate Crusher tonight and be done with it. What does tickle my fancy is some of the subtle dirt-pushing towards Crusher so early on. It's not even day two, and I can't help but feel at least one person in this FoS/vote party is Mafia looking to lay groundwork (aka "Look! I was suspicious of him from the beginning!). It's just a bad sort of tango to dance to. More from me later. which is y he shut up. just sayin..... there is no push with 1 vote btw. See below. On vote with several soft remarks of suspicion is definitely a push. And he most certainly has not "shut up." He's still going, in fact. I have to say, the prime benefit of this day thus far is seeing who's jumped at Crusher and who hasn't. I firmly believe that at least one person who lightly threw dirt towards the push on Crusher is Mafia. I can't in good faith get behind this lynch. I wouldn't exactly call it a lynch, as I'm the only person that's voted for him. lol While true at the time, notice the point I made about laying groundwork for a later point - that's certainly what's happened in APW Mafia games before. |
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Post by Kurt on Aug 9, 2015 9:19:33 GMT -4
ya, rebel said he was gonna catcgh up and come back....so theres that This just reeks of bread-crumbing. Pretty much the moment heat started on Crusher, you weighed in. Not long after the discussion turned to the quiet people, you lay this out. Major FoS: Knuckles. |
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Post by Reaver on Aug 9, 2015 10:32:19 GMT -4
ya, rebel said he was gonna catcgh up and come back....so theres that This just reeks of bread-crumbing. Pretty much the moment heat started on Crusher, you weighed in. Not long after the discussion turned to the quiet people, you lay this out. Major FoS: Knuckles. HA nice try tho... just making plans outside of game while trying to lay some seeds of my own in game. i think sally hit it on the head with crusher. if he just goes around throwing votes on random people with NO evidence to back it up, he is distracting us from finding the scum. on the positive note, the reactions of people in this thread are definitely interesting. a few tricks i picked up in efk mafia games. still no extra word from rebel i might add. love the spirit tho kurt. should i take my MVP award now or should we wait till game is over? |
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Post by Kurt on Aug 9, 2015 11:40:16 GMT -4
This just reeks of bread-crumbing. Pretty much the moment heat started on Crusher, you weighed in. Not long after the discussion turned to the quiet people, you lay this out. Major FoS: Knuckles. HA nice try tho... just making plans outside of game while trying to lay some seeds of my own in game. i think sally hit it on the head with crusher. if he just goes around throwing votes on random people with NO evidence to back it up, he is distracting us from finding the scum. on the positive note, the reactions of people in this thread are definitely interesting. a few tricks i picked up in efk mafia games. still no extra word from rebel i might add. love the spirit tho kurt. should i take my MVP award now or should we wait till game is over? First off, that bold line? Questionable phrase there. What seeds does a townie need to try and lay? Second, rather, than explaining these reactions/tricks you claim to have discovered, you're placing focus back on Rebel. This post doesn't really add to the discussion, nor does it push any buttons that haven't already been pushed. It's a standard middle groundwork post. It concerns me that you apparently are sitting back, stroking your metaphysical beard with vague, nondescript ideas, without actively generating any new discussion. Of all the players in this game so far Knuckles, you are actively appearing to be the most Mafia. |
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 9, 2015 14:13:48 GMT -4
I don't consider voting based on what I perceive to be scumtells to be voting based on NO evidence at all. I've merely retracted my votes because new information keeps popping up that the reasons I find you people scummy are just normal townie behavior in the APW "Meta". If these things weren't normalized behavior I'd definitely want to string up Kris as my strongest gut scum feeling. But obviously I was arguing from a position of ignorance so I have to reconsider my suspicions.
Why are you so adamant about wanting to hear from Rebel, but not so much from Arkia? Is there a reason you don't feel like analyzing anyone else matters up to this point?
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Post by Reaver on Aug 9, 2015 19:25:26 GMT -4
Players:
1. Rebel
2. Kris
3. Reaver
4. Harvey
5. Kurt
6. Kaji
7. SalTal
8. Crusher
9. Arkia Fisk
this helps LOADS!
didnt realize arkia was in too so yes id love to see them speak. my point is the fact that all we had were activity posts from these 2. so yes there where my focus is. the fact that kurt is trying to throw smoke at me is raising red flags. the fact that i said i was working on my plans out of the game never bother to register huh? its kool kurt, come target me n find out.
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Post by SalTal on Aug 9, 2015 22:38:30 GMT -4
Reaver, you're not looking good right now haha.
You have your activity post which throws on suspicion on Crusher, then when you're called out on it, you throw suspicion on Rebel, and then Arkia and then the person who actually calls you out (Kurt). All under the guise of what? Laying a plan? What sort of plan do you need to lay?
I think Crusher's continued hyper-scum hunting has stayed consistent enough. But when contrasted to Reaver's multiple change in attitudes, I think the suspicion is there now.
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Post by "Supersonic" Branden Harvey on Aug 9, 2015 23:40:38 GMT -4
I think there are two scum: Knuckles and Crusher. That's what I've ascertained from this.
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Post by Crusher Crenshaw on Aug 10, 2015 0:40:25 GMT -4
It is rather confusing to me how everyone seems to be soft roleclaiming at the slightest hint of suspicion towards them.
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